Thanks all for your excellent feedback.
Clarification;
- We tested the BDP-09FD’s internal Wolfson DACs, and feeding the digital signal using Coax digital cable to the Expert Pro 220’s own ‘magic’ DAC. I guess I just like the sound of my player’s DAC too much. Both were really excellent. Listening to CDs from Fourplay, Bob James, Stanley Jordon and more, in each instance the results were unambiguous. The CD yielded a superior sound to mine and my son’s ears. I hate to use superlatives, but the difference was dramatic. The sound from the player / disc was altogether clearer, more consise, fuller, bigger, more effortless / less strained even when the decibels were increased to loud levels, to say nothing of definition and detail especially in the upper mid / treble hf region. Low level listening was more resolved too.
Mastering92 brings up interesting points re; latency and EMI. George, I think your point on mastering is very intriguing also. I will investigate.
I do understand that a full non-compressed stream should sound no different in quality between different digital formats using like DACs / amps etc. Again my streaming setup is not complete, lacking a good streamer server, although in my son’s system both Tidal and qobuz run optimally on the Devialet Expert Pro 220. |
Wow riaa_award_collectors_on_facebook! Most impressive background. Facinating information that strikes of truth, and by that i mean good information. I am all ears and attention. What you are saying (and George too), means that many of the recordings we listening too from streaming services are already compressed? Interestingly, the CDs I mentioned above, are all at least 15-20 years old and more. Guys I beg your pardon, but I think this subject is not stale even though it may have been talked about many times. Aren’t all aspects of our hobby talked about many times? We help each other to build better sound systems within our budgets. Streaming and cloud storage is a huge business as is hardware and software around these services. My own monthly bill includes Tidal topline service, apple music (for family), britbox, acorn TV apple tv, and my cloud storage plan. Many ‘in the business’ do not want to move away from streaming because of huge revenues and profits. It seems nowadays that it is heresy to suggest that anything other than streaming is inferior. Incidentally, The best sound I have ever heard on multi-hundred thousand dollar systems was analog LP systems. By best, I mean the most convincing of reality to my ears. I have heard some great streaming systems too, but not as good as a high-end transport DAC Clock CD / DSD systems. If the music is served from a local server / NAS drive, I believe that is not considered streaming? |
Hi Folks,
i hope you are all enjoying a restful Sunday.
I must apologize because, my son informed me yesterday morning of a setting that effects sound quality from Tidal streaming and that did call into question the validity of the results of the test we performed. Under settings, there is a loudness normalization option, and this impacts dynamic range. Also my son had used his iPad, which has an option to set quality according to available bandwidth, which was also active. We neglected to check these and they had been selected to active during all our listening, without us knowing. We did some listening tests again. This time the differences in quality were not quite so dramatic, but were apparent all the same.
I really need to try the dedicated streamer / server as that may be the answer. The question of EMI / RFI is top of mind too. |
Hi dear folks. Just thought this video might be helpful to the discussion. It is not a high-end system but my son had this before moving to the Expert. It still produces a terrific sound as you will hear somewhat (recording with iPhone has limitations and the wind was blowing the blinds and curtains so much noise) Headphones will sound best (i love wireless Apple EarPods actually). The CD player, preamp and m/c amp are Parasound Halo really quite old. I am aiming for sound quality along these lines from streaming, and I am now leaning towards the notion that this can only be achieved with a dedicated streamer setup with careful attention on EMI /RFI. The Etheregen product looks very interesting indeed, and many comments indicate it has a positive impact on sound quality. I cannot afford Roon on top of everything else unfortunately although I wish I could. https://youtu.be/t2A1SCDa0oA |
Hi JPeter568,
Thanks for that great information. Your work as a senior systems engineer gives you the advantage of knowledge from a technical standpoint. Some very interesting and relevant points you make, although from my personal experience, and don’t ask me why, different players as transports do affect the sound one hears (note that I have only used players as transports, and not dedicated transports which could be a different result);
a) no noise is carried in the digital stream
b) even a modest or rather network setup, it is capable of carrying a bit perfect stream with no problem
c) Transports as separate from an external DAC will have zero effect on the sound quality
quote; “So to the original OP - my guess is that it was a difference in configuration or a setting that might have been off - certainly the dac WILL have an impact on the sound, so I'd recommend connecting a digital out on your transport, checking your settings to ensure you're streaming the same thing, and then re-doing the test. Because coming through the same DAC should be identical sound (WITH the caveat that George points out too - provided they're the exact same mix/ release of the album.)”
The test was as follows;
On my son’s system, a Devialet Expert Pro 220 driving Magico S3 through Synergistic Research Foundation speaker cables run a stream of albums on Tidal that I have on CD and them compare them. I also brought my Pioneer BDP-09fd to his house to use as CD player. We did the following;
- First test: Run ethernet cable from his router directly to Expert DAC input, then using iPad and Devialet Air, stream the songs via Airplay-Eth
- Second test; Connect Apple Macbook Air (first gen where direct USB connect possible without dongle) via USB into Expert Pro and stream same songs over USB, with the advantage of first stage MQA unfold
- Third test; Connect CD player via coax to Expert Pro to run digital stream to Expert Pro DAC, sourced from CDs or same albums of tidal streams
- Fourth Test; Connect CD player via analogue outputs running transparent ultra and synergistic research foundation i/c. In this case, the Wolfson DACs do to D to A conversion.
JPeter568,
Sir you are obviously very knowledgable as networks and systems connectivity is your professional vocation. Everything you’ve said make sense although i would have to offer an alternative viewpoint on transports, only because i have observed the differences between several that I have. For example, as superb as the Oppo 205 and 203 are, purely as transports, they don’t sound as good as the BDP-09fd purely as transport, which produces a more dimensional and captivating sound to my ears. Again I can’t explain why. Perhaps its in the execution of the interface? As an aside, I think for 1080p, I prefer the picture and sound of that Pioneer $2,200 flagship from around 2008-2010 to the venerated (justly so) UDP205 and 203.
It stands to reason that bits is bits. Streaming should sound no different than the CD. They are both after all 1s an 0s that are checked to be bit perfect. There is of course the matter of jitter and I would suspect at the micro levels it doesn’t affect sound quality too much for the average high resolving system. But for über resolving systems that might be different.
So then, we are left with two possibilities that might account for the differences heard in the test we conducted. These differences are not massive but they can greatly affect ones enjoyment listening to music, and can be stated as loss ‘something’ especially in high frequency purity and clarity, bigger more clearly definite / solid imaging or put another way a more ‘definite’ presence and vitality to the sound, a more accurate less homogenized soundstage, more defined bass performance, and less ‘smearing’. Incidentally I should add, that on occasion I have heard streaming sound very very good, good enough to keep me with wine in hand sat in place for hours listening. The two possibilities as i see it are;
a. Noise, from EMI / RFI pollution
b. A compromised stream that is not full bandwidth or where compression algorithms are screwing up timing causing smear, and messing with information vital to the full sonic picture. Again sometimes the sound is better than others…
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Hi RichTruss,
Excellent system. I believe what you are saying and can understand why,, although others have different results with different players. Your scenario is not the same as streaming from a cloud service though, right?. You are playing FLAC files stored on a local NAS drive, so have full control of the stream quality / bandwidth.
With respect to the high-end community turning its collective back on ultimate sound quality for the sake of convenience, I don’t accept that as truth. All of us love the convenience of streaming, and the access to vast and growing libraries of music, but there is a point in our community where ultimate quality is a deciding factor for the music we key up for critical listening. Listening to a well-recorded album with original dynamic range intact of, say late 60’s early 70’s classic rock can be a wonderful experience. Not so much so if the content is off in some way.
Hi Roxy, by the way I like your idea of hunting for old CD treasures. One can run across pristine CDs like that. At the end of the day, for those on a budget with so many other financial responsibilities, that may find streaming cloud music services hard to justify, then having a decent disc spinner and enjoying the hunt for bargains is a great strategy. |
Hi JPeters568 and Cleeds, thanks both for your great input. I am learning.
i will offer this from personal experience. The digital bit perfect stream that is check in the cache / buffer aside, CD players can and do sound different in the way the music is presented. For example, I had a Rega CD player (among others) that was decent, but didn’t offer the same performance and sound characteristics that I crave compared to the Oppo UDP-205. That player sounds truly top class. The DAC section is outstanding in every respect, so as a player, it sounds different. The same with the Pioneer BDP-09fd (modified). The DAC accounts for much of the sound quality as does the analogue output stage.
Cleeds is I think correct on this JP, the ISP does have some control of the stream with respect to compression. That is what i am struggling with I think. Noise of course could be a factor, but as you’ve pointed out JP, for the most part, the digital data is delivered to the router noise-free.
Another point and please correct me if I am wrong, doesn’t using balanced / XLR analogue interconnects eliminate noise? |
Anzaanimalclinic,
Thanks for the sage advice. And we are getting to the root of the matter here with what I suspect is in large part responsible for underperformance. The fact that sometimes the performance is better than others may be down to noise in my local network.
the Ether Regen is top of mind, but You have peaked my interest with other options that may be more cost effective for me. I checked out the ENO filter but it is an English company? I will search for a distributor in the US. |
Thanks Zerofox, that Simaudio Supernova CD player is very good. I heard one at a friends place several years ago.
Interesting that many, including yourself, prefer Qobuz over Tidal. |
Quote RIAA_award.. “OP, If you think an OPPO 205 has a good dac (I have one) your mind would be blown by a Really good dac (Esoteric/MSB/Luxman/DCS/Mola Mola). An Oppo should only be used as a Transport.”
Yes I do realize there are better. I would have to contest your statement that the 205 should just be used as a transport. Please do keep in mind that the DACs you list are very expensive, and out of the reach of perhaps 90 percent of folks out there. The DAC in my son’s Devialet Expert Pro 220 is right up there with the best. I’ve heard a number of very high priced DACs. I would say the MSB is the best I’ve heard. I still maintain that the Oppo UDP-205 has a good dac (two actually). Yes other DACs such as the Expert are more capable but the UDP-205 does not embarrass itself by any means and serves the music well. I would suggest you give it a listen if you have a chance. Running the CD player in the 205 via its balanced outputs straight into an amp, will surprise you just how good the DACs are. How? 1. The (mid-large) room is filled with sound - Less capable DACs I have heard struggle with this to some degree. 2. Resolution of detail through the frequency range is incredible especially high frequency detail retrieval 3. Sound is balanced and natural, although not quite on the same level as the Expert. 4. Sound has dynamic vitality and musical energy 5. Sound is very clean and pure - not that far behind the Expert. 5. Imaging is decent although the Expert is in a different class here. |
Listened to some CDs last night on the Oppo UDP-203. It has AKM ‘Velvet’ DACs as opposed to the UDP-205’s ESS Sabre DACs. Its interesting how they sound different. The 205 sounds a bit more detailed in the higher frequencies. The 203 has a really lovely sound. Those AKM DACs have a certain ‘give’, a certain very slight pillowy softness that makes the sound so listenable and enjoyable.
Streaming has its place. But I still think, for many recordings - not all, that CDs sound great. |
George the MSB DACs do sound great. |
My son has the Denafrips Pontus, R2R Ladder DAC. |
Quote RIAA…..Facebook
‘Ive got 6 or 7 Oppo’s. Ive heard em as is...not even close..not even in the same state let alone the same ballpark. Wish I had your ears cause I would save a ton of cash. Sucks to be me!! Good for you thou...Congrats’
Then dear sir, I am very glad I do not have your ‘golden ears’ for I do not have a ton of cash to spend on more and more gear. These poor ears will have to be content and make do. My son’s system give’s me insight to ‘high-end’ sound.
By the way, the Oppo’s you have, do they include the UDP-203 or UDP-205? With these last models, Oppo poured all of their know-how and technical expertise in what they knew to be their farewell product; their swansong. I believe they wanted to show the world just how good they could make these pieces. The UDP-203 sold for a mere $600, a laughable sum considering just how good it sounds, and the technology and quality built into it. Same for the 205. Do they have the shiny jewelry billet aluminium casework of far more expensive fare. No. But they are beautiful in the fashion of ‘pure form follows function’ |
Hi Limomangus,
A good vinyl system is very addictive, but yes a lot of work to keep. Its worth it if the setup is good though. A lot of great LPs out there in thrift shops at $1 - $2 ea. I like house music too and there are many superb collections out there. Dependent on recording, a CD will sound very high quality on a good player and system. Streaming can sound amazing too, but the reason I started this thread, was to share my concern with spotty streaming quality from services such as Tidal. I listen sometimes to Soundcloud, and I have found so much great music, really superb, on there. Soundcloud is a the platform where so many young talented musicians, djs and amateurs offering to share their music. I’ve found much music including house music on vinyl and converted and streamable on Soundcloud. |
Hi Audphile1,
Your experience mirrors mine.
For my ears, I can always hear better sound, because it is less forced even at higher volumes, more engaging - i can listen for long periods without fatigue - and the sound is just, well, more beautiful to listen too. When streaming is bad, my music-lover brain switches off to the music. I listen for perhaps 15 minutes then switch the amp off. Unfortunately, its been my experience of streaming from cloud services such as Tidal Qobuz or Apple, that as of late, the sound is too often unsatisfactory for longer listening.
I believe the reason Tidal sounds sometimes acceptable and sometimes better as a high-quality source than Qobuz is their space algorithms. Apple has implemented this ‘space’ algorithm in their streaming service too.
I am of the opinion that streaming a digital file, unadulterated, over today’s networks that are capable of high bandwidth, can yield results on par, or perhaps even better than CD. However, the problem is the file is not sent and received in ‘native’ pristine fashion. It is compressed then de-compressed - what have you - and the result to my ears is smearing, vague sound that is most obviously compromised in terms of imaging, with homogenization and distortion.
In contrast, I pop in a CD and more often than not the sound is clearly better, more resolved, and precise than the streamed version of that music (George;s point is well taken here). Notably the sound is less smeared with better imaging, more tone color and better texture. The sound presentation is more resolute, more defined and more present.
This isn’t always to be the case. Sometimes it seems to me a switch is flipped and the the cloud stream sound is so much improved. I just wish it was more consistent. For now, I am considering giving up on streaming, as this is frustrating. |
Fellows,
I have an update. In lieu of a dedicated streamer on my list of must-haves, I may have corrected the inconsistency of streaming quality. More available bandwidth and also noise reduction.
As a point of reference, currently streaming Apple Music (the newly improved Lossless / Hi-Res service). Cannot say yea or nay if this service equals or beats Qobuz or Tidal, but am hearing great sound. So, two major changes that have affected change;
1. Got replacement router modem from Frontier. This time, went into the software admin application and enabled the separation of 2.4G from 5G. Allowing selection of 2.4G or 5G.
2. My son gifted me an Asus RX3000 5G WiFi router with excellent WiFi and 5G performance. Plugged that in to an ethernet port on the Arris NVG468MQ Optical Fiber (ONT) router, now operating in 5G mode. The Asus is well reviewed. My rationale for an additional router is to extend the performance over the the Frontier router and gain performance by connecting to the Asus RX3000 5G network.
I don’t watch TV regularly - a couple of times a week really. Kicked things off first with video content, a show on YouTube, streamed from my computer. launching from the Brave browser circumvents continual advertisements, I watched a beautifully filmed Turkish drama serial called Karadayi. First indications positive. Things were on the up and up. The show was streaming in full HD 1080p. It has until now almost always down-converted resolution to 720p, maybe a sign that I have been dealing with bandwidth limitation all the while?
And that is what has happened. I am hearing better sound more consistently from streamed content than I did before. Much closer to good Redbook CD quality.
I think that the improvement is down to more consistent bandwidth availability, enabled by 5G perhaps? Also, could it be that by plugging in the Asus RX3000 somehow EMI /RFI noise is being more effectively addressed? Any views are welcome. |
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Geph0007,
Thanks for your observation. I do get what you are saying. My latest experience has me much more willing to go the whole hog down the streaming path - albeit not giving up CD - because i definitely hear a major improvement after sorting out the network. I am convinced bandwidth was probably responsible for my experiencing a sub-optimal result. The best way i can describe it, is when someone sends you a vid of very low res as a text message. Its small so you can’t see it properly. Try and expand it and it looks awful. I think something similar happens with streaming. If the bandwidth is affected, the file will down-convert, resulting in a smaller lower quality image that loses any sense of scale and proper imaging. It sounds hard and distorted. Now i have been using the newly revamped Apple music with lossless and high res. They also have a spatial audio / atmos for compatible headphones /DACs. Replacing my modem / router and running 5G, the Apple service has quite honesty sounded really really good. I am very impressed. Yes compared to my current, admittedly limited streaming setup, CD as far as I can hear does sound more complete. I think anyone with good hearing could tell instantly. But then, i do not have a dedicated streamer. Logically there should be no reason why a bitstream at full resolution should sound any different than CD.
Cheers and happy listening. |
