Dear @catcher10 @2channel8: That Phonomena phono stage seems to me that is something special and especially that so low price. I never heard of it before but maybe is time to evaluate it. The owners and reviewers speaks excellent " things " about the item.
This is a highligth from an owner in reference to his cartridge loading:
"""
Ortofon Cadenza Blue (MC). I am using a Pro-Ject Audio 2Xperience SB turntable and Ortofon 6NX interconnects. The Phonomena also allows me plenty of flexibility in choosing gain and impedance loading. With the Cadenza Blue I am using a gain of 56 dB and an impedance of 59 ohms (I like the tight, defined bottom end). """
The Nova is even better, at least is what I read it. Very useful information for take care about.
R. |
"""
(all previously covered) """
So we have here an " instant repetition " of those take aways that at the end are really usless because every one already owns what they own.
Maybe, another " instant repetition " is in order for really slower brains ( stupid. ). Go a head. |
Dear @catcher10: I for got:
""" I have my own fully proccess to make audio items evaluations in my system through listening sessions. """
Through my self " designed " evaluation proccess I don’t listen to the " woods/forest " because we just can be losted inside it.
Years ago I choosed very carefully the specific LP tracks ( different LPs. ) to use in that overall proccess and at each track 1-3 minutes that gives me/shows me specific characteristics of sounds ( mainly at both frequency range extremes that’s where music belongs in a home system/room. )
Always use same tracks for the same specific characteristics. In this way the proccess is repeatable and through the time with absolute control on it. I even know exactly the tone of a click in the track when exist on it.
One of the advantages to stay away from the " woods/forest " is that first I can’t be losted second that I test at an specific branch in an specific tree insided the forest and third is that with out doubt I know for sure what to look for for the evaluation validity/certainty. There is no " land " to mistakes no matter what.
I have to say that for me was and is a very useful tool that I can use with any system/room and always determine what is happening down there.
Btw, Allaerts is another example of what I posted and @amg56 is rigth. I own the MC2 Finish Gold and J.Allaerts is extremely precise not only in the specific loading but VTF too where in both the range to move is a minimum one.
Btw, was my Allaerts cartridge the sample used to the review in Stereophile, I borrowed to MF because the manufacturer " never " has cartridges for that, is always over-sold.
R.
|
Dear @catcher10: Usually my first take is to follow the manufacturer advise, at the end he is the designer and was him who voiced the cartridge but it's here precisely at the cartridge voicing where belongs the " problems " and I said problems because I don't find other word to explain it.
It's obvious that other of what math tells to the designer he makes the voicing with a very specific system/room that normally we just have not any reference/names of the audio items in his system so we all have a heavy " handycap " to " load " over our shoulders.
Each one of our systems/rooms are different too and those maths are not taking in count all the system/rooms variables as does not takes in count the more problematic of all variables that are we audiophiles, you and me with different sound/music knowledge levels and with different system/room targets for those sound and MUSIC.
To deal with so many variables is almost impossible to fix it manipulating one parameter as the load impedance or capacitance or both of them..
Through my audio life I learned from several audiophiles, item designers and even reviewers or audio true roockies.
If we always are willing to learn we can do it coming those " lessons " from any one and everywhere and we learn when we achieve a new knowledge or when we confirm what we already know or when we learn what not to do and why.
I'm a follower of what I learned and what I tested about and I have a " simple " rule to put my errors/omisions at minimum and is thatv through some years now I try that at each single link in my system/room chain everykind of distortions/deviations/noises/resonances, or the name you can give, stays at minimum to be truer to the recorded on those LP grooves. I know that my targets about are not easy to acomplish and I'm still working on but this " simple rule " tells me that if everything is " fine " in the system/room my taste or any one taste is not critical or really important because trhough that system/room what you listen always will like you because staying truer to the recording you can stay not so far aways from the reference that's live music.
I'm not biased with my taste, I'm biased with the MUSIC and I know how instruments performs in near field that is how the recording microphones are at the recording sessions.
I don't have control over what's in the recordings but I can have some control through the playing overall proccess and that 47K loading for LOMC ones is out of question for me specially after tested.
I think that overall subject with we audiophiles is that the AHEE teached us to trust in what we LIKE when several times what we like is just wrong but it's what we like, we are biased that way.
I owned at least 3 VDH Colibri and in all those cartridges the manufacturer advise with out matters its output level the loading figure was 50ohms-500ohms. I listened with different loading settings inside that range and always finished at 100 ohms and I can tell you that at 500 ohms the cartridge in my system is just unlistenable , just imagine at 47K: out of question.
I think that we can't hide our ears sensitivite losting or system/room " problems " behind that 47K loading impedance.
Again, first than doing that we have to make an exhaustive check up on each link of our system/room chain and why not: that a professional makes us a ears cleaning every 3-4 months and stay away from very high SPL for more than 2-3 minutes and of course attend at least one day a week to listen live music.
No, I don't buy that 47K/capacitance issue because no one of his proponents prove me that is the way to go and because my tests confirms is a wrong road to go. At least for now. Maybe, I need to learn or not something I'm missing here or not.
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R. |
Dear @catcher10: "
Not all LOMC carts sound best at 100 ohms......", as you said depends on phono stage but as a fact depends on the whole system/room.
Normally at 100 ohms has to sound good. Now if we want the penultimate loading for a specific cartridge this is almost imposible.
During my tests I tested 3 cartridges and all performs in the way I posted with 47k.
As a fact and at least in my system I'm not bother any more for that " wrong " 47K loading with LOMC ones. But that's me.
R. |
Dear @wynpalmer4 and friends: Other that your very clear higligths I posted other gentleman posted in this thread:
"
If your set up sounds "wrong" with more modest loading, such as 100 ohms, something might be wrong elsewhere..."""
I don't know why all those " huge " inistence on the capacitance LOMC subject maybe because one of them is a seller .
Now, you are a gentleman that already use around " 100 ohms as loading the LOMC cartridge and in the Madake 60 ohms with great results.
I experienced always in the same way however a " live " evaluation tests are in order and as always I just did it because it's the best way to learn something new or confirm our believes.
I have my own fully proccess to make audio items evaluations in my system through listening sessions. My tests evaluation was changing only one parameter that's the cartridge load impedance going from my usual 100 ohms to 47kohms and 100kohms. Fortunatelly I have that proved proccess ( tested in my system and many other diffrenet systems. ) and a truly high resolution and precise system. Well this is what I found out against 100 ohms:
I found out no more transparency or openess in the system presentation in those HF range but what I heard is lower " definition " of the fundamental and developed harmonics even in some of the tracks of that test proccess part of the detalied HF with 100 ohms not only was veiled but just disappeared. The transient and decay time changed in a way that makes everything more " ethereal " than with live music definition.
The overall presentation at 47/100k has a penalty not only in the HF range but even at the lower ranges maybe because the " contrast " in between goes smaller but I can't be sure why.
Taking those Wyn highlighs and the larryi ( now I remember whom posted the highligth at the begin of this post. ) I agree with both of you and what larryi said is true " something wrong " in the system.
Seems to me that some of you that prefer 47K with out intention to do it what in reality are doing is " compensating " some " faults " somewhere in the audio system links of that complex system chain and could be problems in more than one of those system links.
My take is that before we make changes on LOMC cartridge loading and especially from 100 ohms to 47K we have to be totally sure that at every single system link we have no " problems " but if you are unaware of that then you have to make a proved testing evaluation using a proccess that permit a " true " evaluation. Obviously that we can't be absolutely sure of the proccess validity but we have to be nearer to that " true ".
Is more frecuent/often that we make changes where we don't need to do it but anyway we did it and think that were for the better when in reallity are only hidden system " errors " somewhere.
Of course that for those evaluations we have to be honest with our self and not biased on purpose or because we are accustom to this or that characteristic in the sounds and obviously that we have to be sure that we know how sounds each instrument in a near field live event.
Btw, I made my tests as always: at normal seating position and at near field position. As a part of my proccess tests headphones are inside but normally I don't use it because I'm truly engaged with the system but this time I used and confirms what I said. I always prefer the near field test than the headphones because I'm not accustom to.
Btw, I tested through too using an additional full stage with my AU-1000 SUT with similar results that in the active high gain phonolinepreamp.
Now, sounds bad at 47K? no it did not but when you are accustom to the top quality level I'm the you can listen the difference at once not 3 hours latter, it's immediatly.
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.
|
Dear @almarg and friends: This came for the very first post by Wyn:
""
the bottom line is- you’ll never get it perfect. You can either listen and decide what you like......... A couple of other things, the RIAA deemphasis of your amp comes into play, and it’s not unusual for that to be off c. 0.5dB or so over some frequency range, and most amps have restricted frequency responses to reduce the infrasonic and ultrasonic signals.
Also, your room/speaker response is probably poor with errors at least as large as any from the above sources, so unless you’ve characterized and corrected that then listening is probably your best bet. """
and then from the others posts these hiligths:
"""
I'm a believer in fixing the problem where it exists and not by adding an additional parameter to an already over-constrained problem. """
"""
Unfortunately accentuated dynamics and resolution all too often mean a really nasty peak at the HF. In my experience......... testing the RIAA response can be a real eye opener.
Most of the differences in response that occur due to changes in load are in the 10k-20kHz range. """
"""
Again, listening is best, but be careful not to delude yourself.
Audiophiles (myself included) tend to get seduced by what are essentially deviations from what the real listening experience provides- such as excessive detail, ability to resolve supposed room artifacts etc. etc.
These effects, in my substantial experience of live performances, just do not exist in a live listening environment,..."""
"""
take the Madake for instance- the resistive load that people (reviewers) claim is best literally varies by nearly four orders of magnitude! I load mine with 60 ohms (as do many users) and I find that the resolution and dynamics is excellent while maintaining a natural timbre, tonal balance and micro/macro dynamics while not creating the unnatural etched image that many "high resolution" MC cartridges produce. """
"""
increasing the R to 47k shows significant near-oscillation at the output of the preamp.
The passive design shows none of these pathologies with the change in load R, and always has a significantly slower and essentially constant, risetime,.........................................................................................................................
perhaps the answer to the loading question is, no matter how unlikely it seems- it depends on the architecture of your phono """
Everything he posted is full of lessons for me and maybe for some other readers.
Is important for me read those highligths that gives a more " affordable " information for all and important to note his " perhaps " in last higligth.
This thread made that I remembered one time in one of my trips to USA when in an audiophile place whom owned a top system/room audio system ( 150K-200K $$$. ) I attended and when we were listening his system I noted something was wrong with the tonal balance of his LOMC cartridge .
His system in those times ( between other items ) had: Walker TT, Dali top of the line speakers, tube monobloks amps, first rate cables everywhere, very good room treatment many audiophile tweaks and a four chasis all tube phono stage ( no SUT. ).
Mi first question to him was the value of the load he was using where I ask him to lower to at least 100 ohms and he did it ( he was loading it at way higher R. ) and ligths come out " and he noted at once as I did it."
Everything changed for the better. Over the time my experiences with my and other systems attest the same behavior ( tubes and SS electronics. ).
Al, I posted to you that the capacitance issue is almost useless when exist several other critical subjects we have to fix in our systems before that.
As Wyn posted: "
so unless you’ve characterized and corrected that then listening is probably your best bet. """ followed by:
"""
fixing the problem where it exists and not by adding an additional parameter to an already over-constrained problem """
Analog is full of " problems " and " problems " of more vital importance that the capacitance issue and are on those " main problems " where we have to work before other " new " parameter.
If I remember years ago (but I'm not sure if he was. ) I read probably in the long MM thread a JC post telling that for capacitance could has an audible effect with LOMC cartridges the amount of capacitance must be truly high. This was the second time that I read it ( first time somewhere in the net. ) . As I said not totally sure if was JC but was in Agon. I really never bother about as I don't bother yet.
As @krelldog and @catcher10: "
There is a tremendous amount of info here, both super technical as well as the basics """.
R.
|
Dear @lewm : Something is " wrong " ( maybe I. ) or not clear somewhere because in my system loaded at 100 ohms a LOMC cartridges ( almost any. ) quality level performance is truly fantastic and yes wide open, precise and clear at the top end frequency range. Tonal balance is superb and you never can say " sounds a little dull ". Dynamics are great too, transientes, rythm and everything.
All those’s contrary of what many of you that are loading at 47kohms posted in this thread and I know for sure no one of you are deaf but neither I.
I have to say that I’m very sensitive to both frequency extremes that’s where belongs my main self home system/room educational foundations to my main target that’s truer to the recording been live MUSIC the top reference.
I listened many many audio system/room other than mine through audio dealers and mainly in audiophile places where normally ( even with 300K+ dollars systems. ) those both frequency ranges are a little " out " from what I’m learned must be.
Yes, as always I can be wrong but some of the audiophiles at their places and after make some " changes " in their systems agreed with my take.
Of course and as I posted my system has no single problem with cliks or pops.
Many of us are accustomed or like more " high frequency "/frequency deviations ( that I normally name it:distortions. ) that I can’t listen in in live acoustic events.
Obviously that almost each one of use have diferent home system/room targets .
Anyway, very enligthing discussion.
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R. |
Dear @almarg : "
I’m truly impressed! ".. With all my respecto to you and other enginners the " best " ones are/were the ones designers inside Analog Devices, B&B/TX, in the past National and so on and Wyn belongs to them.
They made and make only true industry reference designs/items, they write the " standards " about through their work, their first hand experiences put all them in a league " orders of magnitud " above we mere mortals. Especially me.
@wynpalmer4 I really hope you can stay with us at Agon. Welcome a board.
R. |
Dear @krelldog : I posted several times in this thread each one ignorance levels where some people has higher when other lower in this specific subject but additional to that there are all over the world ignorants that additional are in the stupidity are because can't understand that or those or anything on audio.
My attitude is always try to help for any one ( including me. ) trys to low those ignorance levels but I always ignore stupid persons because will never learn.
R. |
Dear @almarg and friends: """
Thus, over compensating the response to make the measurements have a minimal deviation from nominal over the "full" audio band is probably not the best approach.
Again, listening is best, but be careful not to delude yourself.
Audiophiles (myself included) tend to get seduced by what are essentially deviations from what the real listening experience provides- such as excessive detail, ability to resolve supposed room artifacts etc. etc.
These effects, in my substantial experience of live performances, just do not exist in a live listening environment, but what really matters are things like instrumental timbre and dynamics (both micro and macro) and that often gets lost in the shuffle, and in the recording. """
""" Unfortunately accentuated dynamics and resolution all too often mean a really nasty peak at the HF. In my experience, getting a good test record and testing the RIAA response can be a real eye opener. """
As I said the contribution by @wynpalmer4 was and is an audiophile lessons for those that are willing to learn as me.
Both fragments/high ligths from the wynpalmer4 are ( for me ) the crucial/critical subject for all of us ( again for the ones that are willing to change. ).
The ones that read or seen my posts in Agon knows that I always ( form some years now. ) posted ( with different words ) exactly what we can read in those high ligths and almost all of you posted that I'm " wrong " but almost neves said why.
I like to learn every single day because it's what can confirm or not that what I'm doing or thinking is wrong or rigth.
As I posted I don't have the technical level of wyn or Al so those great contributions are for me as true " oasis " in the desert.
Yes, to learn we have ( at the same time ) willing to change willing to start with some system tests willing to start again with system evaluations willing to make a check up of our MUSIC/sound priorities because as happened to me many times those priorities are way wrong even if we are " jumping " of hapiness for what we are listening for months/years.
And remember that all of us have high ignorance levels in many audio regards and in other subjects that ignorance level is lower.
Through the wyn posts I learned that what I was thinking/posting over years was and is true only that I never had how to prove it. Thank's wyn.
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.
|
Dear @almarg : My " worry " here is not whom is rigth but more if things are pratically to any one of us, if we can do a easy as to load impedance changes. Normally cable manufacturers does not gives cable capacitance. I put the KK example but if you go to Audience ( OP cables. ) you can find out nothing.
Many times you can't know the ps fixed capacitance and the ones that comes with capacitive loading switch this works only when using MM but not when LOMC.
Ok, what's the problem to tame the peak ( as you said. ) loading at 100 ohms?
In the times of that TAS LOMC cartridges evaluations the specific cartridge loading never was associated to capacitance .
The advise is almost useless because we don't have or can have control on it to make any kind of changes about.
The cable manufacturers does not give the capacitance value but the tonearm manufacturers neither with the tonearm internal wires.
I don't think that that kind of advice from your part is of any help but only making more " noise " in the audiophile minds.
I always read your posts because always have very good contributions but for me not this time .
Now, always is good to have contributions as the wyn one. Don't you think?
I'm not technical oriented at your level but I always try to make things in the best way and in an easy way because at the end what I and we want is to enjoy the MUSIC and always is system dependent.
R. |
@catcher10: " stiffens compliance "?, you or any one but the cartridge designer can change cartridge compliance, certainly load can't do it.
R. |
Dear @wynpalmer4: " I may not be a renowned Audio Designer..."""
Problem with we audiophiles is that almost all always think that reviewers and manufacturers are the ones that not only kno everything but that what they say always is " the Bible " and almost all of us are docile followers, pity for say the least.
The other problem is that we audiophiles think we understand " everything " in audio with out take in count that all of us are ignorant people in several audio subjects when in other audio subjects our ignorance levels are lower.
Additional to that when I speak of ignorance levels peoples feel that I’m trying to offend/hit them when it’s in not way. Ignorance is just that: ignorance.
Good that you came here to put a true " ligth " in that regards because the atmasphere seller is spreading that same capacitance issue all over the internet forums and like here @krelldog is " facinated " with 47koms @catcher10 just does not understand what you posted.
We all audiophiles in reality are not educated in what is wrong or good in what we are listening at our place/home and this ignorance level is the real brake that stops the high end faster developments. Go figure, we are in 2018 still using tubes in phono stages and the real problem is that audiophiles are jumping of hapiness with. To each his owns.
""" In most cases a resistance close to 100 ohms is fine- largely because the coil DC resistance is often a proxy for the inductance .... and as a result a 100 ohm load gives you a well damped electrical system..."""
Several years ago I remember a top LOMC cartridges evaluation made it in TAS where one of the reviewers was the TAS’s editor ( that pass away. ) where as was his " trend " always loaded his LOMC at 47kohm but he did it for way different reasons where one of them was that he was losting to fast his auditive sensitivity due that for many years he listened his audio system at way to high SPL ( he had the Infinity IRS loaned from years. ) and where that sensitivity affects more is at the high frequency range that’s what shows that wrong 47kohms loading. We " love " that " transparency/spark "/detail in that range with out take in count that only are higher distortion levels. You said it:
""" Unfortunately accentuated dynamics and resolution all too often mean a really nasty peak at the HF ....... ferences in response that occur due to changes in load are in the 10k-20kHz range. """
Well, audiophiles as me sometimes we don’t like 100ohms loads because in many audio systems makes that we " feel " that the sound is " dull " but the problem is not on the load it self but in the system/room interaction and that our MUSIC/sound priorities are wrong choosed and sometimes is because we not only don’t attend often to live events but there are people that not even does one time in a year ! ! and this is a serious trouble.
"""
I’m a believer in fixing the problem where it exists and not by adding an additional parameter to an already over-constrained problem. """
with different words I posted something like that.
"" you can’t even simulate or calculate it to find a decent answer as no MC cartridge maker that I am aware of provides even simple models for their device, even when asked. """
it’s out of our control.
I’m way ignorant in several audio subjects and I wish to have a tinny very tinny fraction of your level knowledge/skills and experiences.
For my part really appreciated your posts. A learning lessons for all we true audiophiles that are always willing to learn and trying to sell nothing.
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.
|
"""
If your set up sounds "wrong" with more modest loading, such as 100 ohms, something might be wrong elsewhere ""
R. |
@atmasphere : Wrong, my Phonolinepreamp is designed in the rigth way. As I said you are not dicovering the black thread, at least not for me. One gentleman that can attest about those absence thicks/pops that you think I have is @cardani whom attend to my place not one but several times and he can chimes on it. No the issue is that the advise is really useless. Please think that any audiophile already owns an audio system where as @krelldog only want advice to load his new carrtridge. He already has a phono stage and cables with a level of capacitance that normally for MC stages can’t change about and we have to live with what we own. Where can we try to change capacitance?, maybe with a different IC cable but exist one problem almost no one of the cable manufacturers gives the cable capacitance value, here is an example in a very expensive cable: https://www.kimber.com/products/KS-1236 so now, we have to own a voltimeter/multimeter to measure our own cable and how can we decide for which change it? and if we change it how can we know it works as the theory says?, yes, we can buy another one and another one till we find out the one that could help because we can’t eliminate at 100% those thicks/pops no matter what. Additional we already own a tonearm that the tonearm manufacturers normally ( few does it. ) does not gives the tonearm internal capacitance. I have no problem in my system but add the capacitance/MC issue to all " thousands " of critical subjects that we have to take in count to achieve a decent analog experiences makes no sense to me when many audiophiles ( including me. ) are trying not only to understand but to obtain information of the best way for match tonearm with a cartridge, its correct alignment, loading, setting-up: VTA/SRA, VTF, AZ, AS, platter mat, clamps, TT plattforms, phono stage RIAA deviation, Phono stage noise/distortion levels, Phono stage output impedance, etc, etc etc There are priorities and the capacitance is certainly not a critical priority because normally is out of each one of us control. Lucky the ones that has the rigth phono stage but that capacitance subject is not for any one can " lost " his dream. It’s not practically. @krelldog, read what @larryi posted and forgeret of all those capacitance issue that you don’t have it. R. |
Dear @almarg : " basically saying ", now I understand you and now your advise is useful when the post of the atmasphere it's not for the OP.
But he always post with a hidden agenda that sooner or latter comes out like in this regards:
for a few time ago he was posting here and elsewhere the same about that capacitance LOMC issue and he just posted here:
"
People often ask me how I get such low noise reproduction without ticks and pops and that is the secret. "
why he posted that? no one is asking for but he did it because he is a seller a very agressive seller that always post with a hidden agenda. Now, the ones that read here know that his electronics are just " perfect ".
I'm not against any manufacturer as him what is not valid is to post trying not really to help ( as you ) but to sell " something ". It's the same with TP tonearms and everything where he has or look for a bu$ine$$.
""" Raul prefers digital audio... no idea why he posts here ""
well I don't know why this forum permits to a seller to promotes in an audiophile threads because he never gives an advice as an audiophiile but as a seller. He is not like J.Carr that posted and post in Agon and other forums and you will never read JC promoting anything he doings only gives honest advices as an audiophile.
Time to report it.
R.
|
Dear @almarg : I understand all what you posted and that's theory behind.
When I said if you have first hand experiences/attest for that what I'm trying to say is that with a normal phono stage design that normally comes with fixed capacitance value for LOMC cartridges and options for the loading impedance . This is what I'm refereing to.
As Syntax pointed out each phono stage comes with way different kind of designs. So what's your advice to audiophiles about? that because they can't change the capacitance value or don't have money to change too the phono cable then what?
Makes no sense advices as the atmasphere about because there are several many other cartridge set up parameters way more important. All of us must work with what we have using it in the best way we can. The capacitance issue has other implications with LOMC but this not the issue but what exist in the market about.
You are happy with the Herron, good for you but are many way better phono stages with different design to Herron. Try to say or imply that a single characteristic makes the " differences " like the capacitance in LOMC cartridges has no sense. The theory has sense but this is not the issue.
I think that analog is full of severe problems fopr we can enjoy it to now start to worry about capacitance. Go figure ! !
As I said, there are other issues extremely more important where we audiophiles have control with out spend money.
Makes sense to you that now all audiophiles must do something on capacitance? because the common sense of J.Carr says something different in his Lyra site.
Again, I'm not against that theory but about ist real advantage especially when before the capacitance issue many of us are trying to know how can we achieve an accurate tonearm/cartridge/TT alignment that even reviewers today some of them just don't understand the theory behind that kind of critical alignment issue.
@krelldog , don't distress. Makes no changes just make the cartridge tests with what you have and follows what syntax posted. You have to try it, makes tests with what you have before any other thing. Forgeret about theory in that specific regards. Some people try to terrorize to all of us simple audiophiles. No J.Carr never did or does.
R. |
@krelldog : Some persons think that invented the " black thread ". That atmasphere advice is the same on almost each loading thread from years but in reality does not solves what we are looking for. The theory behind that is true but through several cartridges I owned over time that capacitance issue never helps or damages the listening experiences through LOMC cartridges . After you do what I posted you can make tests changing capacitance and you will attest what I said here. @almarg , I read in the past that from J.Carr. Now, please tell me if you have first hand experiences where you can attest it. In the other side in the Lyra website exist no single reference to that, here what you can read on the Atlas that's a 8-9+K dollars cartridge: ""
- Recommended load directly into MC phono input: 104ohm ~ 887ohm (determine by listening, or follow detailed guidelines in user manual) ""
there you can read what J.Carr yes the same J.carr you name it says: " determine by listening ". @uberwaltz, " terrific "/great post from your part. Enriched the OP thread. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. http://lyraanalog.com/atlas/
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Dear @krelldog : For the first 50-60 hours test it with 100 ohms . During that time is only for the cartridge can overall settle down, after those 50-60 hours you have to re-check the tonearm/cartridge whole set up: overhang, cantilever alignment, VTA/SRA, VTF and AZ and after this " fine tunning " excersice you can to start your listening tests starting with that 100 ohms and listening for a while and the make a change either to 47 ohms or 220 ohms then you can decide where is better for you.
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R. |
Dear @atmasphere : The OP is asking for loading and not why many phono stages works in different way when we make load values.
Who cares, he as any one of us already owns a phono stage it does not matter what and no one can make a world research to find out which phono stages works as should be, it's imposible to do that.
So, what each one of us have to do is to load our cartridges according what we have and according each one music/sound priorities. That's all.
R. |
Dear @krelldog : I agree with the gentlemans behind 100 ohms very good point to start and I think you will never have to change it. Of course that it's your particular audio system items whom will have the " last word " through your listening experiences over the time.
Btw, very good system you own.
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R. |
You are rigth about and I did not think you have an issue with my posts.
R. |
Dear @catcher10: Yesterday I made in deep tests again along the cantilever stiffnees issue.
Wyn posted in this cantilever regards: """
certainly not on tracking which is demonstrably false based on IM tests on tracking performance that I have incidentally performed as a function of load. """
"""
I load mine with 60 ohms (as do many users) and I find that the resolution and dynamics is excellent while maintaining a natural timbre, tonal balance and micro/macro dynamics while not creating the unnatural etched image that many "high resolution" MC cartridges produce.
From my tests I agree with him. If other gentlemans insist about that cantilever stiffness then could be just negligible and with no real significance. Cartridge tracking habilities are manteined regarding how we are loading it. """
That leaves all to PS units dependent and Wyn said: " perhaps ".
After the yesterday overall tests the behavior of my system/room confirms what I posted before: higher resolution/dynamics, etc, etc. at 100 ohms, way better than the 47k.
Btw, I loaded the Kleos at 100 ohms with true top quality performance and before that the Titan, Helikon or Evolve.
"""
This is why you need to try different settings and listen, but you should understand what is going on at 100 ohms vs 1000 ohms vs 100K """
the key word in your statement is: " understand ". Remember one of latest posts where I said and explain why we need to have a " bullet proof evaluation/test proccess? and forrest vs tree's branch?
I can tell you that I understand it and I hope every one can understand it too because it's really easy to be losted in the " forest " or in that often audiophile " mistake " : " I like it " .
Thank's for your answer.
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.
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cantilever problem/tracking habilities. |
Dear @catcher10: """
I tend to agree but then I assume it is because you have to load at a lower setting, which is not good for the cantilever, you run the chance of stiffening the cantilever. """
that was in reference to those Morrow cables. Now, I understand what that loading electrical can or could has some effect on the cartridge compliance and you said that exist a chance to.....
I think that to really stiffening the cantilever something really extraordinary has to happens.
How did you measure and what found out when changing from 500 ohms to 100omhs loading about that cantuilever stiffness that puts it on risk and how can we know when that could happens. Which the loading window limits to play inside in safe way. If any.? which is the role of the cartridge suspension dampers in all this load subject. How can be affected?
I ask that because not only my personal experiences in my system for years but what other audiophiles in their systems experienced when I was at their places. Different systems with different LOMC cartridges. They never reported anywhere a cantilever problem with their cartridges because a 100ohms load not me either.
How can I be aware of it?
Your anwers truly appreciated. Thank's in advance.
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.
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