If he's a musician/bass player, he will most likely be happier with pro-audio equipment for home studios. Start with a mixing board with about 12 channels, and a pair of active/powered pro studio monitors so you won't have to worry about a power amp. Musician's are concerned with being able to record their instruments, voices and music more than just playing it back. Also, look into a small multi-channel digital recording console. Make sure he has a CD player that can record and burn CD's - not just playback. Pro gear is generally not very expensive if you know how to shop for it. Just check out Musicians Friend, American Music, Hello Music. Or, if you have a Guitar Center in your area go their - they can help you out.. and if you decide to buy there, don't let them charge you full retail.
Can I get a
Hello Everyone,
I am overwhelmed and intimidated by my choices and I need some expert help. Let me start by stating what I'm trying to accomplish. This is for a really good friend of mine, who's a musician, a bass player. His birthday is coming up in April and I've convinced some friends of mine to go in with me on buying him a stereo that is worthy of him, and his music collection. He's a hard-working guy and deserves it.
So this is what I'm trying to accomplish. Create a system for a 12'x10' room, using "bookshelf" speakers with a subwoofer, 2.1 or 5.1, I don't really care. Logic would make me think that 2.1 speakers for the same price as 5.1 speakers would be better because it's more expensive per speaker, but I know the world isn't all that logical. What I do care about is bass response. Something that has low frequency response in the bookshelfs (bottom end of 40-45hz seems to be the limit), but I want the subwoofer to get to 20hz. Am willing to settle for 21hz :)
His primary music of choice is metal. And not like Judas Priest or AC/DC metal but death metal, black metal, and grindcore. Yes he likes Iron Maiden too. I know that from my readings of audiophile magazines back in the day it seems like there's a predominance of classical music lovers that populate audiophile ranks, and for those of you wholly unfamiliar, the music of this extreme metal is analogous to classical, just with heavy, heavy distortion. I say similar because there are often many instruments in the mix, and they are playing technically difficult pieces at high rates of speed, and separation of instruments is just as important as being able to feel like the violin and woodwind sections aren't smashed on top of each other but have some space on the "stage". His second favourite genre of music is classical in fact, but it is a distant second.
I love music myself and have considered myself an audiophile in spirit more than in practice, reading "Stereo Review" magazines as a teenager and absorbing every word, but I didn't keep up with it. I know some terminology from when DSP was just coming into existence in solid state amplifiers and receivers and HDMI was merely a gleam in some engineer's eye. Also I know that some things - like cassette decks - were made better 20 years ago than they are nowadays, but has everything else been improved upon? I know that my money will go further if I buy used equipment to compliment perhaps some new equipment, but knowing the huge pantheon of equipment out today along with what has been out there for the last 30 years has made my brain spill out on the floor more than once.
What I'm looking to buy:
1. The receiver (or power amp, pre-amp, phono stage amp) Contenders were a Denon 3805 if I just wanted to keep this as a stereo and not connect a TV to it, Arcam AVR360 used? I had a receiver back in the early 90's that had a THD of .005% (I looked it up just to be sure) for stereo so I'm kind of surprised to see that's still about what the receivers of today can also accomplish. Watts, my early receiver that I mentioned before had 125w/ch, the Denon has 120 at 8 ohms with low THD, but I think it does HDMI in some archaic way, hence being hesitant to hook up a HDTV to it? Also I don't know if I might need some unusual speaker connectors depending on the speakers that are selected...
2. Turntable. This is about the only thing I feel fairly comfortable with the choice so far, but I'm certainly open to hear why I'm wrong, my choice is the $400 darling of the press, the Pro-ject Debut Carbon.
3. Cassette deck. Yes he's got a lot of demos and stuff that's ONLY on cassette, would be good to have the best source possible for an eventual digital conversion. My thoughts are to stick with something that has Dolby S and 3 heads, with the latter being more important than the former, like something from the Sony ES line in the mid-90s or something I actually have personal experience with, like an Onkyo TA-2600 (is there a newer version?) Nakamichi Dragon anyone? I feel like I can get something in the $100-200 range here.
4. CD player / DAC for digital media (MP3s, FLAC) Ok, why did I group them together? Two words: the Oppo BDP-105. It would be almost half the budget right there (I might be able to get it for about a grand flat) but from what I understand this thing will put hair on your chest while blowing it off your head! Undeground metal never got released in SACD format and blu-ray audio seems equally unlikely for this genre of music, but it supposedly really does a number on upsampling of CDs, and is supposedly a preeminent DAC for the aforementioned sound files on a computer. He actually doesn't have a lot of these but I figure if I can kill two birds with one stone and future-proof it simultaneously, it's a win-win-win. Otherwise, I know nothing about DACs really, I saw the Essence HDACC, Emotiva XDA-2, they look good, are they? Back when I bought a component CD player things that were important were a high S-to-N ratiio (105db+ was considered very good), oversampling at a minimum of 4x... Yes, I've heard of CD transport through tube but have never seen it in real life.
5. Finally the speakers, what do I know other than bass needs woofers and woofers need space? I've seen speakers that have two cable inputs, marked HF and LF? Do those work with regular receivers or do they need some kind of discrete crossover? I'm really overwhelmed here, the only thing that I've seen that had good subwoofer ratings were the Monitor Audio MASS 5.1 Speaker System and the Definitive Technology ProCinema 600, I know a dilettane's research to be sure, but I have a job too! Both of these are probably better for home theatre than music, but not bad? This is a place where I think I could really use some help from the community to school me to some speakers where stereo reproduction is the main consideration.
5a. Cables and interconnects. I was pretty deep into the religion of expensive audio cables about 13 years ago, but I'm in IT and I had a revelation one day, which is that if an audio signal has some data distorted the note may sound flat or sharp (an exaggeration I know), but if a cable carrying data puts one byte out of order, the file will be corrupt. In other words, the necessity for perfection is much higher in computer land, and yet $2 SATA cables for hard drives, and $5 USB cables, can send terabyte after terabyte of data back and forth to the computer with no corruption. So $100 cables, nevermind $1000 cables, just another re-enforcement of the old axiom about the fool and his money? Please let me know how this comparison is wrong and I'm the fool.
Finally, just to be clear, if I could do it RIGHT, I would like to be able to deliver a stereo that could connect to a HDTV with a cable box and a Roku, and output the sound to the stereo, maybe something like the Denon 3805 I mentioned earlier would do a splendid job of this? I'm out of it with these HDTVs because I don't really watch (crazy I know, I <3 the music more) I truly apologize for being long-winded, but I've learned the devil is in the details, and in the many posts I've read I see over and over again, people ask what genre of music will be predominantly played. Thank you so much if you've actually read all of this, and I want to thank you all for helping me make my friend's birthday one he'll remember for a long, long time.
I am overwhelmed and intimidated by my choices and I need some expert help. Let me start by stating what I'm trying to accomplish. This is for a really good friend of mine, who's a musician, a bass player. His birthday is coming up in April and I've convinced some friends of mine to go in with me on buying him a stereo that is worthy of him, and his music collection. He's a hard-working guy and deserves it.
So this is what I'm trying to accomplish. Create a system for a 12'x10' room, using "bookshelf" speakers with a subwoofer, 2.1 or 5.1, I don't really care. Logic would make me think that 2.1 speakers for the same price as 5.1 speakers would be better because it's more expensive per speaker, but I know the world isn't all that logical. What I do care about is bass response. Something that has low frequency response in the bookshelfs (bottom end of 40-45hz seems to be the limit), but I want the subwoofer to get to 20hz. Am willing to settle for 21hz :)
His primary music of choice is metal. And not like Judas Priest or AC/DC metal but death metal, black metal, and grindcore. Yes he likes Iron Maiden too. I know that from my readings of audiophile magazines back in the day it seems like there's a predominance of classical music lovers that populate audiophile ranks, and for those of you wholly unfamiliar, the music of this extreme metal is analogous to classical, just with heavy, heavy distortion. I say similar because there are often many instruments in the mix, and they are playing technically difficult pieces at high rates of speed, and separation of instruments is just as important as being able to feel like the violin and woodwind sections aren't smashed on top of each other but have some space on the "stage". His second favourite genre of music is classical in fact, but it is a distant second.
I love music myself and have considered myself an audiophile in spirit more than in practice, reading "Stereo Review" magazines as a teenager and absorbing every word, but I didn't keep up with it. I know some terminology from when DSP was just coming into existence in solid state amplifiers and receivers and HDMI was merely a gleam in some engineer's eye. Also I know that some things - like cassette decks - were made better 20 years ago than they are nowadays, but has everything else been improved upon? I know that my money will go further if I buy used equipment to compliment perhaps some new equipment, but knowing the huge pantheon of equipment out today along with what has been out there for the last 30 years has made my brain spill out on the floor more than once.
What I'm looking to buy:
1. The receiver (or power amp, pre-amp, phono stage amp) Contenders were a Denon 3805 if I just wanted to keep this as a stereo and not connect a TV to it, Arcam AVR360 used? I had a receiver back in the early 90's that had a THD of .005% (I looked it up just to be sure) for stereo so I'm kind of surprised to see that's still about what the receivers of today can also accomplish. Watts, my early receiver that I mentioned before had 125w/ch, the Denon has 120 at 8 ohms with low THD, but I think it does HDMI in some archaic way, hence being hesitant to hook up a HDTV to it? Also I don't know if I might need some unusual speaker connectors depending on the speakers that are selected...
2. Turntable. This is about the only thing I feel fairly comfortable with the choice so far, but I'm certainly open to hear why I'm wrong, my choice is the $400 darling of the press, the Pro-ject Debut Carbon.
3. Cassette deck. Yes he's got a lot of demos and stuff that's ONLY on cassette, would be good to have the best source possible for an eventual digital conversion. My thoughts are to stick with something that has Dolby S and 3 heads, with the latter being more important than the former, like something from the Sony ES line in the mid-90s or something I actually have personal experience with, like an Onkyo TA-2600 (is there a newer version?) Nakamichi Dragon anyone? I feel like I can get something in the $100-200 range here.
4. CD player / DAC for digital media (MP3s, FLAC) Ok, why did I group them together? Two words: the Oppo BDP-105. It would be almost half the budget right there (I might be able to get it for about a grand flat) but from what I understand this thing will put hair on your chest while blowing it off your head! Undeground metal never got released in SACD format and blu-ray audio seems equally unlikely for this genre of music, but it supposedly really does a number on upsampling of CDs, and is supposedly a preeminent DAC for the aforementioned sound files on a computer. He actually doesn't have a lot of these but I figure if I can kill two birds with one stone and future-proof it simultaneously, it's a win-win-win. Otherwise, I know nothing about DACs really, I saw the Essence HDACC, Emotiva XDA-2, they look good, are they? Back when I bought a component CD player things that were important were a high S-to-N ratiio (105db+ was considered very good), oversampling at a minimum of 4x... Yes, I've heard of CD transport through tube but have never seen it in real life.
5. Finally the speakers, what do I know other than bass needs woofers and woofers need space? I've seen speakers that have two cable inputs, marked HF and LF? Do those work with regular receivers or do they need some kind of discrete crossover? I'm really overwhelmed here, the only thing that I've seen that had good subwoofer ratings were the Monitor Audio MASS 5.1 Speaker System and the Definitive Technology ProCinema 600, I know a dilettane's research to be sure, but I have a job too! Both of these are probably better for home theatre than music, but not bad? This is a place where I think I could really use some help from the community to school me to some speakers where stereo reproduction is the main consideration.
5a. Cables and interconnects. I was pretty deep into the religion of expensive audio cables about 13 years ago, but I'm in IT and I had a revelation one day, which is that if an audio signal has some data distorted the note may sound flat or sharp (an exaggeration I know), but if a cable carrying data puts one byte out of order, the file will be corrupt. In other words, the necessity for perfection is much higher in computer land, and yet $2 SATA cables for hard drives, and $5 USB cables, can send terabyte after terabyte of data back and forth to the computer with no corruption. So $100 cables, nevermind $1000 cables, just another re-enforcement of the old axiom about the fool and his money? Please let me know how this comparison is wrong and I'm the fool.
Finally, just to be clear, if I could do it RIGHT, I would like to be able to deliver a stereo that could connect to a HDTV with a cable box and a Roku, and output the sound to the stereo, maybe something like the Denon 3805 I mentioned earlier would do a splendid job of this? I'm out of it with these HDTVs because I don't really watch (crazy I know, I <3 the music more) I truly apologize for being long-winded, but I've learned the devil is in the details, and in the many posts I've read I see over and over again, people ask what genre of music will be predominantly played. Thank you so much if you've actually read all of this, and I want to thank you all for helping me make my friend's birthday one he'll remember for a long, long time.
21 responses Add your response
Are you going for 2 channel or surround sound/home theater? For music only going 2 channel will get you further for the buck. You'd want a 2 channel integrated amp with minimum 2 analog line level inputs for CD and tape and 1 phono input + perhaps 1 or more digital inputs for connection from other digital sources, like cable box perhaps or ROku, or possibly just additional analog line level inputs for those in lieu of digital. In general you need to make sure that you have enough line level analog, phono level analog, and digital inputs to handle all teh specific source devices that will be used. Make sure you know the output types for each, including specific type of digital output if used. I'd look for a NAD 2 channel integrated with phono input + enough suitable inputs to handle all the outputs. That is assuming tape is play only. If recording will be done, you need an integrated with at least one tape loop circuit and connections (1 out, 1 in). Make sure the integrated can handle all the input devices, including phono, which is a special analog input that provides the additional gain needed. That's the nuts and bolts. Then use whats left for the rest. Dynaudio monitors would be a good choice of speakers for this setup. Remember for turntable a cartridge is needed as well. A higher output moving magnet cartridge will simplify things in that most integrated amps in that price range will likely have MM phono input, if not lower level Moving COil (MC). MOving coil cart will likely add expense not needed at this point. Audioquest would be a safe and good value line for the wires. Which ones, and whether you go new or used, will depend on how much $$$$s left after the rest. Save this for last. Regarding cassette deck, I've always thought Yamaha to offer good value and performance in more recent years. |
Gslone's comments make a lot of sense. Is he the type of guy who would feel more comfortable in a pro audio setting or would he like to sit back and listen to high quality sound? Make sure he has a CD player that can record and burn CD's - not just playback. I think this is a must for him in any type of room you build. Also, IMO it's a pretty safe bet that he'll want to play and record with cassette. Maybe you could put together a hybrid type of system. |
Thank you for the responses so far. I appreciate the thought of getting him some pro-audio mixing/editing/recording equipment, but unsurprisingly, he does already have what he needs. He does own a computer too, which has a CD burner. I assure you that the cassette deck will not be for making mix tapes :) It will be for playback, and he can always add to this if he gets the overwhelming need to go back and time and dub tapes, i.e. buy a another cassette deck. You know, with the wealth of gear, past and present that's out there, I really just was hoping for some leads that I could further explore, because for instance if some great CD player came out seven years ago, and there's a DAC that's exceptional that came out last year, I'm ignorant of it and it's no longer being pushed even by the company that made it because they're on to the next one. So, I'm not trying to change the whole plan, but stick to the equipment I've already outlined. Like I said, the sheer number of speaker choices that are out there are definitely overwhelming, and how 8 ohm vs 4 ohm might perform for heavy bass response and separation of instruments would be extremely helpful to me. The comment that Mapman made about forgetting about a cartridge is definitely something that made me think twice, not because I'd forgotten about it but because I felt in the sub-$1000 category, the turntable would come with a cartridge that then could be upgraded later, but at least there would be one there and it wouldn't be terrible and it would work out of the box. Thanks again for the responses and kind words so far, keep 'em coming! |
Stay away from NAD, please... You need something with power and detail. It's out there, start with this and go from here: Harman/Kardon HK990 integrated amp JBL L890 or Studio 290 speakers. With either of these models, you don't really need a sub in most rooms. Marantz SA8005 SACD player or the Oppo, it's a good player. Turntable: Either of the Audio-Technica models will do Cartridge: Audio-Technics AT440mla Cables: BLue Jeans Cables or Monoprice, look them up. |
For speakers, I suggest you look at PSB; they are affordable and are excellent for rock music. There are several different levels of spkrs in their line-up. They have a signature house sound and produce a wide soundstage and deep tight bass (when paired with the right amp). Here is one example, the Image Series which have high sensitivity, IOW, easy to drive. Since the room is small, the T5 floorstander might work and the bass response goes to about 35 dB. (specs are often slightly exaggerated) http://www.psbspeakers.com/products/image FYI, unless you are using a high quality sub, the subwoofer will generally not produce a tight, detailed bass and can sometimes make the bass sound muddy. It should be used to supplement the spkr and not for producing the bass frequencies. And I would also recommend Blue Jeans Cable. Good "Bang for the Buck." |
This is a train wreck waiting to happen. Who here would like a multi thousand dollar gift in the form of a stereo system picked out for them by someone with limited knowledge of what is available or even wanted, as opposed to the cash to buy what you wanted? Take him out for cocktails, give him an envelope with the cash in it and tell him what it's for. Live long and prosper! |
Its a lot safer buying things like this for people who will like it but also have no prior opinions or biases going in than for one who might, like a professional musician. Definitely risky I would say. I give audio things to relatives and friends all the time and things have always worked out fine, but never to a musician or audiophile, unless I know exactly what turns them on. That would make me a bit nervous. |
Just to clarify what I meant by pro equipment. I did not mean gear for recording etc. I simply meant something big and loud for playback like a big amp and a pair of bins with 15" woofers and a cheap turntable. Maybe I am not getting the death metal angle but when I was young, I played a Technics deck through a Vox AC30. |
A gift certificate from Bass Central should make an awesome birthday present for a bass player. IMO. http://www.basscentral.com |
Hey Dave ... back in the day, the Crown DC 300 series amps were considered to be top drawer. Seems like most people today turn their noses up when Crown is mentioned. Perhaps Crown decided to go commercial (e.g., PA), but I thought in the early days of audio, the IC 150, the D 150 and DC 300 were considered audiophile grade components. For the sake of full disclosure I used to own a DC 300 that was built in the late 60s. It just refused to die. About 5 years ago, I picked up a DC 300A for my son. It works A-OK. One of these days, I've gotta set up a shoot out with my ARC gear. I'd plotz if the DC 300A more than held its own. :) |
Thank you again for the considered opinions on this subject. I just wanted to ask a couple specific questions to a few of you that gave specific recommendations on equipment. To Dave_72 and Lowrider57: Thank you for the multiple category recommendations, however the Harman/Kardon HK990 is 2 grand all by itself, not really a choice when your total budget is $2500. I looked around for this used or sold second-hand and surprisingly (to me) came up with zero results. Is there something less expensive that you could think of? What do you think about my original suggestion of the Denon AVR-3805? Also, I'm kind of surprised you would recommend a turntable that's less than $200 (unless I'm missing something, all the Audio-Technica turntables are this cheap except the USB one which is unnecessary here). Finally, both your speaker recommendations are floor standing speakers and there just isn't room for that here, they have to be able to be either wall-mounted or put on a bookshelf, hence the desire for a sub to complement them. However, your speaker recommendations gave me a good jumping off point and in the course of clicking from one thing to another came across Monitor Audio RX2s and Ascend Acoustics Sierra-1s. What do you think of these speakers and what do you think about pairing them with a REL Strata 3? In my research, I found a good price on this subwoofer but have never heard it, seems highly lauded though. I looked at the PSB speakers website, again, I really can only consider the bookshelfs, but I was uncertain as to how to read the different frequency response values that were dependent on the axis? I thought that the tighter the variance, the better the output of sound, but in their specs it shows that when you go from + or - 3dB to 1 1/2 you lose frequency? And thanks to both of you for the Blue Jeans Cable tip. Don't feel inhibited from commenting on this too, Audiogon community! To Bifwynne: I appreciate you opening my eyes to hi-fi from the 60s, but I don't feel good about buying something that is rapidly approaching its 50th birthday :) Finally, I appreciate everyone's concern for my friend that he actually gets something he wants, but I assure you that I would not undertake this task if I didn't allude to this in conversation. At a certain age, you're grateful for quality gifts, even if you already have an idea of what they're going to be :) |
Just to reinforce some of your original ideas; go with the Pro-ject Debut Carbon, a good "plug and play" TT with a carbon fiber tonearm and an Ortofon Red. Oppo is a good choice, but buy a used BDP-103. The 105 is clearly over your budget. The 103 has all the features you're looking for. Now, a subject that only you can decide; do you want a multi-channel setup with an AVR, the Oppo, and more speakers or do you want 2 channel? It seems to me that you don't have the budget for a HT setup. REL makes excellent subs, but they are pricey. If you can find a used one at a decent price, go for it. As far as speakers, don't get so hung-up on specs. Anyway, your choice of speaker should be made in combination with the amp. Impedance, Sensitivity and power rating are the most significant specs to consider when pairing an amp and speaker. It will be easy to find a bookshelf with high sensitivity (easy for the amp to drive). I suggest you go listen to some speakers, as you said, you don't know what's out there. Today's bookshelf speakers are smaller, more efficient, and pack more punch than those of yesteryear. If there are no HiFi shops close-by, then go to a Best Buy Magnolia room. Hope this helps. |