Mordante - have you looked at Van Den Hul? - I think they are local to you :-)
I've used three of their Speaker cables and have been very happy - Currently using their 10 gauge D352 Hybrid cables with my Naim 50 Watt integrated amp - cost around $250 for 10ft pair in Canada
I have always used their bulk cable and put my own termination on them.
You can always step up to their Carbon Fibre - supposed to be completely transparent - bit pricey though |
BO1972 - did you try the carbon fibre speaker cables?
How did you find them ? - what was lacking in their performance for you |
Well, I guess it boils down to trying them in your system and seeing how you like them - as always
Personally I like the d352 in my rig - detailed dynamic, spacious, very focussed no problems with the highs - or lows for that matter.
But I might just pop down to the audio store to see what they have :-) |
Bo1972 - if it were possible I'd invite you to come listen to my rig, since it is far from flat and quite nicely 3D - perhaps not as good as your amp, but still very good compared to many other that I have listened to.
I attribute this 3D image to the upgrades in cables - power/interconnect and speaker and very much to the Gershman Acoustic speakers
I do have several tracks where the instruments are positioned very accurately in the sound stage with the venue acoustics adding significant height to the performance - just as you described.
The most recent improvement was due to a change in the mains connectors on my furutech 10 gauge cable, which improved the 3D image to levels never experience before.
Granted - the amp out of the box with standard power cords has a flat 2D presentation - but then so do many other brands.
The biggest improvements I have made with my rig is with the power cords - they have transformed the whole sound.
I do believe that your opinion is based on what you have experienced - but then again - so is mine. So I think we will just have to agree to disagree.
The nice thing about Agon - there are many different opinions available for people to evaluate.
Regards. |
Macdad - the investment in developing cable architectures, choosing a wire and plugs, spec-ing you own cable designs is significant and a whole different science compared to circuits and quality parts.
I asked a manufacturer the same question and his answer...
- why should I bother
- the customer will do what they want anyway
- it's a waste of my energies.
And he is right.
At this point in time though, component manufacturers will give you as cheep a cable as they can get away with. It's called designing to a price point.
Most components can perform way above what their provided cables will allow them to - I've personally demonstrated it time and again to others.
And that's why there is a whole cable industry out there!
As for seeing component companies develop cables - it has already started - NAIM has carried their own line for years and their new amps have caused them to bring out a whole new line of cables.
Do you think other companies are going to sit back and let them rule the roost?
I doubt it
Only time will tell :-)
Regards... |
Mitch2 - I used NAIM as an example because their customers seem to be extremely loyal and believe NAIM can do no wrong.
I was on their Forum for a while and it seemed that anyone that even dared to mention another brand would be labelled a heretic - People actually seemed scared to admit they used another companies cables.
With this hobby/obsession getting more complex - if more companies offered their own cables I think you could see more of the NAIM customer mentality.
But thankfully not on this forum :-)
Just thinking out loud. |
ZD542 and Mitch - I can only speak to what has transpired in my system, here goes...
A few years back I purchased a NAIM 5i integrated amp - mainly because it was the one amp that impressed me under around $6k and since my budget was much less it was a good fit
It's NAIM's entry level - but the reason I liked it soooo much was it's amazing clarity, natural tones and punch - and the reason for that is it's passive front end.
Moving on - Shortly thereafter I was asked to review some cables - I've gone on about the KLE Innovations stuff on this forum countless times, so I'll cut to the chase.
The Interconnects and Speaker cables have enhanced the performance of this little 50 watt amp so much that it now performs way above it's modest price point of $1700
I have compared my system against others costing between $30-50k and it's right there with them - and even bettering some of them :-)
So - are cables worth it - since my system costs around $14k - $3k of that spent on cables - in my mind - damn right their worth it, i.e. if you can get the right cables - the trouble is which one is the right cable?
The KLE Innovations cables have surprised me time and again by how much better each next model in the product lineup is.
Even their entry level cables has outperformed many of the "established" brands for significantly less cost.
Moving on...
Fortunately, I have been able to fabricate many of my own cables, but the one thing that came out of that exercise was my realization that cable geometry (or architecture) and connector quality is paramount for the best performing cables.
Exotic materials will suffer the same effects as copper if the architecture is the same old twisted pair - resulting in performance that is less than stellar.
Having said all that ZD is correct - if you don't see the value in them then don't chase expensive cables.
I would also add - if you don't have the inclination to learn about "cable science" - don't chase expensive cables either - many of them are not worth their price.
But if you are inquisitive, investigate companies like Anti-cables, Nordost, Shunyata, KLE Innovations and others - especially those that have more interesting cable geometries and theories.
Unfortunately - it is really difficult to acquire knowledge in this area - cable science is relatively new and most companies guard their secrets very well. And to protect copyright they often cite "strange theories" that sound absurd and can be construed as "marketing hype".
Sometimes you just have to read between the lines.
Personally - I have found the spiral geometry - where the neutral conductor is wound around the signal conductor - like Anti Cables Interconnects - to offer extremely good performance for cables of all types - even for power cables!
The other thing is - to get the full benefit from cables - ALL other cables in your system have to be of similar quality.
So - I'm on the "quality cables" bandwagon - but I research the heck out of any new cable and try before I buy.
But I can see why so many others claim otherwise
They just haven't tried the right cables - yet :-) |
Zd - to quote you... "Surprising, because it didn't sound like one" what about the 5i made you feel it was active? I bought the 5i because of it's sound, and at that time I didn't even know it had a passive front end. I seem to like the sound of the limited Passive gear I've heard - a friend has a passive stand alone front end and I find both his system and my 5i sounds very detailed, open, dynamic and natural. I've never really thought about active vs passive (or the differences), so it would be enlightening to get your feedback regarding the sound of Active vs Passive. It will provide me with some indication of what to listen for in future. There is this thread over on amps and Preamps... http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?aamps&1186277547But your thoughts would be very welcome especially since you owned the 5i. Many Thanks. |
Zd - thanks for that feedback. I think it just goes to show that one amp in different environments can sound very different.
However - I am the first to admit that the NAIM can be very finicky - they seem to work well with their own components/speakers, but when mated with components from other brands they can get more than a little "quirky".
Early on I spent some time "adapting" my components to the NAIM. It's design requires that all sources be properly grounded at their mains lead - so my Cambridge Audio phono stage with its Wal-wart power supply and the Pioneer Elite DVD player with two pin plug presented some challenges to get the best sound out of them - grounding each chassis to a central point seemed to fix many of the problems.
My more recent components, all having a grounded power supplies, seem to be a much better match.
Add to that the many different cables I have tried, i.e. IC's SC's and PC's are crucial to get it to its current level of performance.
So I am not at all surprised at what you experienced.
But once you get it all figured out they can sound very sweet indeed.
One other thing I know is an issue with NAIM is high capacitance speaker cables - they can cause the amp to throw a "wobbler".
Having said that - I found these details on the NAIM web site
NACA5 specifications are as follows:
Capacitance: 16pF per metre
Resistance: 9 milliohms per metre
Inductance: 1uH per metre
Minimum length: 3.5 metres per channel
Maximum length: 20 metres per channel
25 meters can be tolerated
lets take a range of cable length 3.5-20 meters
NAIM amps amp can easily accommodate values in the range of...
Capacitance: 56pF to 320pf per cable
Resistance: 31.5 milliohms to 180 milliohms per cable
Inductance: 3.5uH to 20 uH per cable
In my current listening space my cables are in the 3.5 metre range
- so this affords me fair degree of latitude in that...
- I can actually use cables up to "91pF per metre" without and issue
But the 16pf/meter, which is a bit of a "red herring", seems to be what most people latch on to.
But I did find that Kimber Speaker cables did not perform very well - compared to Van den Hul
Moving on....
From the link I posted it seems that different people have widely varying success with passive and active line stages
I think your observation about good active line stages being expensive, may also apply to good passive line stages also, since sound quality seems to depend on how it is implemented e.g. transformers vs stepped volume controls etc...
It also seems that a good passive line stage can be as expensive as a good active line stage.
One thing for sure - I'm a little wiser now :-)
Many thanks for taking the time to post - it was very enlightening |
Danoroo - some very wise advice from the posters above.
Cables are fickle and perhaps the most difficult to attain success with.
I have tried lots of cables with differing architectures and also had some amazing opportunities to get to my current cable base.
The best approach is to try to find stores that have loaners you can borrow and tryout for a week or so.
Or you can buy and return them - but there is the cost of returning to consider.
Some cables take 2-3 days to "settle" so trying to discern improvements can take at least that long.
The more affordable cables I like the look of are from Anticables, Stager Sound Systems and JW Audio. The cables I use are from KLE Innovations - but they get pricey.
For me - the right cables add great value - but the search can be frustrating.
Regards... |
Danoroo - how cheap do you want to go?
Are you able to make your own?
The spiral design IC's detailed under my System link (below) are excellent performers and depending on how far you want to go with them, they can start from around $70 for an all copper version up to $250 for a silver + copper neutral version.
I currently use the silver + copper neutral version and it's extremely good.
If you want more details let me know.
They same spiral design will also work with speaker cables, but I've only tried it with short cables - longer cables take a lot more effort to construct, but the short ones worked extremely well.
Regards. |
Tpcarter - cables can make a difference to systems of all price points.
Personally, I've had great success upgrading power and speaker cables on my Yamaha mini system ($340) and my neighbours boom box ($250) benefited in clarity and bass control with just a simple power cable upgrade.
What cables you select and how they work with your system - i.e. synergy can be significant as to whether you hear a difference - or not.
Personally, I think the order in which you upgrade can play a role - I start by upgrading power cables, then speaker cables and finally IC's - that way I can hear the subtleties IC's bring to the party :-)
As for why others do not hear improvements - this hobby/obsession can be fickle and complexities like room acoustics, speaker placement, musical tastes and other anomolies can play a significant role masking the subtleties cables can bring to the performance.
And these are just a few things I've experienced in my "cable journey" over the years.
Unfortunately there is no sure fire formula - wish there was :-)
Regards |
ZD542 - I think it makes more sense to some people that a more expensive component provides better performance rather than cables - after all, they employ things like quality circuit boards, quality electrical components, quality power supplies - these are bound to sound better - since they do cost more!
But cables ?
It's only a piece of wire! AND they're passive!
How could they possibly improve sound quality simply by having...
- better quality conductors & connectors
- more effective cable architectures
- noise cancelling conductor geometries
- etc...
Unfortunately, I've also met people in the business that don't believe in, what I consider some pretty basic cable science, like the a technician that repaired high end gear for a very hi-end hi-fi store...
- he didn't believe high capacitance speakers cables could be responsible for driving a SS amp into oscillation
- he believed the reason for the amp blowing was that the cables had shorted somehow.
- now he is a little more educated.
But as you pointed out - for the most part trying to convey the benefits of quality cables is very much PITW :-)
The optimist in me likes to think the tide might be turning
- just - v e r y.....s l o w l y
Regards... ;-) |
Zd - The 5 had Active, but the 5i(italics) had a Passive
From the NAIM forum...
NAIT 5 (active) preamp:
• electronic switching
• buffered resistor ladder volume control
• through-hole construction
• fully isolated from power amp ("split")
• six DIN-5 inputs (including powered phono input and three tape in/outs)
NAIT 5i(-2) (passive) preamp:
• relay switching
• passive potentiometer
• surface-mount construction
• +10dB makeup gain in power amp stage
• four RCA phono inputs (two with DIN-5 inputs, one RCA tape out) with 1/8" priority mini-jack on NAIT5i-2
Regards... |
