Cable vs. Electronics: biggest bang for the buck

At last I have entered into the "wire" realm; a place of no interest to me. I feel... Not inspired.

So I look around myself, feeling like a babe in toy land. Teasing myself with such a glorious thought; allowing oneself such largesse as to spend 7 K on wires. I am so jealous. Really.

Of course, there are a lot of other things in audio alone I can spend 7 geeze to improve my audio enjoyment. Things I don't have, like a truly great turn table, the perfect cartridge... Wall to wall Persian carpet (room treatment).

I really shouldn't have walked into this candyland. You see, I'm on a married man with kids in college budget. How serendipity. It just dawned on me, my entire system is worth seven thousand. Now, how about that! What's more, is it is a music system that I bet would bring tears to nearly every one of you; yes, perhaps even you, Asa.

In the next few days, I will have visited one of our audiogon contributors, an audiophile. This man has wires for his system that would make Asa blush. He has gone so far as to rewire from breaker box to dedicated outlet with "8 awg teflon wrapped silver core wire." The "metal matter (Asa)" trail ends up with venerable 1980's Spendors. His front end is more costly and reportably superior to mine, and his amp may just be superior as well. I don't know what to expect.

Hmmm, 7 big ones, and probably more. I pray Nrchy and Asa aren't right.

Of course, in short time, the same gentleman will visit me for a listen to my WIRE POOR system. I hope we can both relate our observations. I'll be happy to, at least.

Wmcmanus, I'm sorry if I hurt your sensibilities. That was not my intention. I also didn't mean to insult any of the above. On rereading, I don't see insults, Jung, or Detlof there.

I feel my contribution is on topic and valid. True, I can't make an honest judgement call on Nrchy's cables, because I doubt I will ever run across them. However, I've seen hundreds of magic wire testimonials, usually planted in amp sections, giving the impression without the golden wire, the said component is just OK. It's all made me a bit cynical.

I will now bow out of cableville, realizing I am just a spoil sport to the true believers of cable alchemy.

I realize I checked out of this forum, but then noticed I had left behind an open ended question. As I stated in a recent post, I had an appointment to listen to a fellow audiophile’s system, and I was to return the favor. How was the system with gilded wires all the way to the breaker box, and how it compares with my modestly wired system?

There was no way to judge the wire. That was because of the two system’s disparity between space and speakers. That isn’t quite accurate. My speakers require good space for proper function. The other’s Spendors were better than most box speakers, but they paled on all levels compared to my ribbon speakers. In his own words:

“The mid and high frequencies from your system are fantastic!, that rig
really brings out the expressive qualities of the musician. Hope to hear
more stuff there soon. The superior space you have is obvious after
listening here (his home) this morning.”

My impressions of his Wadia/Coda/Spendor/small room system were that it is noticeably veiled, a bit colored, and had trouble negotiating complex passages. This was probably all speaker related. His Wadia was neutral and very smooth. It controlled bass at high volume better than my tubed player, but the quality of the bass was again compromised by speaker. His Coda, class A, was very smooth, and sweet enough. With a positive change of speaker, he will have a marvelous sound.

I do think, though, the tubes in my system impart a specialness to the music beyond speakers, the Wadia can’t match. Soon, I will find out. Both systems have inaudible noise floors. That is important to me.

My conclusion remains. Active components should be attended to first, before any hard money is spent on wires, because no wire made can make up for a poorly matched amp, speaker, or front end. Nrch’s question is answered.

Asa, oh Asa. You are a talented writer, when you don’t gild the Lily. It is your condescending manner, to the point of bullying, that puts off a number of us.

Asa, Why the fixation on the Coda? This was a first meeting, it's purpose being an introduction to each other's systems, not components. The Coda's attributes did not get a fair shake played through the Spendors. The Dominus would have helped nothing, for the same reason. That is my point. If wires were the be all of components, his system would have bested mine. I have Kimber. Dominus MIGHT help me. I will gladly audition some. Where can I find a loaner?

I second Onhywy61's request.

I'd be interested in your review of the Coda, Asa. Can you send it? I will actually return a thank you.

My entering a forum is determined by my leisure time, not who's posting. By the way, I am an artist, not a scientist. I have to trust my ears, and, unless I need to check for component compatibility, I never look at specs. In fact, I rarely see someone touting their amp's specs. Like you, I don't like analytical sound. I know people who utilize the TacT system. Everything is clearer, if you are sitting stone like in the sweet spot, but oh so forgettable. I'm surprised you employ a Sony, albeit your second system. I used one when I started; then someone brought over their tubed player. I went out and bought one the next day. Like you, I use tubes because they are more real sounding, call it air or whatever.

Peace

Sorry about the delay. my computer ate my monologue. It was a lot more fun and spontaneous than this will be.

Asa, I knew it was a bad idea when I opened a private dialogue with you. I Had been warned that you might use underhanded antics of injecting excerpts from private mail exchange where it suited you .

Such a breech of conduct puts a pallor on my writing. You know you can be abrasive. You have even, on occasion, excused yourself in subsequent posts, invoking excuses like drunkenness and colds.

re: my last post. You continue to inject your disingenuous spin on my sober account of my audio system comparison. Nrchy’s questions that I quoted speak for themselves, Nrchy’s late seemingly coerced “clarification” not with standing. His questions have legs of their own and it was to those questions I addressed. It should be obvious there is no need for the name Dominus to be interjected into my example. My point was, and still is, there are many thousands of budding audio enthusiasts who have been slid down hyped wire. Yes, I am proud to have influenced my neighbor. He was throwing money down a rat hole “improving” his wires. Now he is attending the basics of good home audio, like replacing his Spendors (how's yours, Asa....If you need advice...).

My neighbor’s quote, once again:

“The mid and high frequencies from your system are fantastic!, that rig
really brings out the expressive qualities of the musician. Hope to hear
more stuff there soon.”

re: My lowfy system: I used an abbreviated equipment list because it was simply not germane to my conclusion. Yes I do have a pre amp, the Pass Labs Aleph P. My main players are all first rate, thankyou. Three of the four were graded SP A, though that’s not why I chose them. The Jolida 100 with NOS tubes is little known, but who cares? At $900 It is the best buy out there for great sound. The Aleph P is wonderfully engineered by Nelson Pass who’s wizardry is obvious on his current X and XA amps. I have the Pass X-150. I use balanced play because that is when the super symmetry circuit kicks in. All audible “white noise” is canceled without the use of feedback. Sheer genius. Even the faintest anomalies present with various tubes in the front end are faithfully passed on to the listener without a hint of veiling ss nasties. Next there is the room. One needs a great room when using large dipoles. Mine is a large rectangular stiff plaster and panel room. Its ten foot ceilings are cross beamed. Now you need a great speaker that can articulate those faintest of signals.That is what the Apogee Duetta Signature is for.The big Apogees first impress you with a wall of sound, then lets your hair down wiith it’s holographic staging and imaging. All the uncanny tactilenss of musicians in their venue environments is captured. Asa, you could do a lot better with your speaker choices. I don’t see how you are enjoying underlying nuances if your speaker is not as fast or uncolored as a ribbon. Then again, your insistance on utilizing microphonioc impared tube gear for the sake of ”air” precludes you from any source nuances anyway.

Anyway, have fun zoning out on the color pink. It occurs to me you are not mollified by your noise floor focus system. You wouldn’t be so irritable. Oh well, this is not a forum made for personal jousting. I’ve made my piece perfectly clear to the willing listener, and will not be returning to this particular thread. Til another discussion....

Wow Asa, as I was about to click the submit button I read your last post. Right on good man! I take back all the bad stuff I said....After I post.

Nrchy: "So, in your opinion what is the better value, assuming the relative value of your components being about equal. Is it cheaper to buy great cables or great electronics? Then, which would provide the biggest improvement?

To restate: I was confronted with an impending test of Nrchy's question. It was by no means a controlled scientific test. However, it does help illuminate the dilemma. Two of us were to listen to our two systems, both of which were comprised of, in the owner's eyes, components of comparable value. They are both similar in dollars value. I will label the two systems A and B.

A is a Wadia/Coda/Spendor/Nordost system. The owner, listening to an "art = science" guru chose to spend serious money replacing twenty feet of romex with 8awg silver cored teflon shielded cable. Obviously, he hoped for a bigger improvement in his system than he might get replacing a piece of electronics.

Fair enough?

B is my Jolida/Pass/Apogee/Kimber system. I differ with system A's contention. My thinking leads me to believe I could best improve system B with another amp arrangement, say biamping, since I perceive it's only weakness being lack of power feeding the bass panel. I would choose this rather than upgrading wire.

Wrong?

Remember, Nrchy never postulated a base level of overall system value that would perhaps magnify the relative value of super wire.

It is my belief that system A could have been vastly improved if the money put into wire had been instead put into a speaker upgrade. Furthermore, the money put into the Nordost was a waste too, given the state of his electronics.

Choices is what this thread is all about, not science versus art, component semantics, Jung, or Buddha. By evolving my speaker/amp/front end to ever increasing levels of excellence rather than gilding the wires, I know I have made the right choices. Owner of system B now joins the score of audiophiles that agree with me whole heartedly after listening to my system.

Nrchy, the answers to your questions are system specific. Shoot for the stars systems like yours may well indeed benefit from wire rolling. I am not in the position to disagree. For us groundlings with sub twenty grand systems speaker/front end/amps choices are far more reaching. IMOH of course!

When I abruptly exited, I forgot to say, "I think I swallowed a bug." Let me correct that omission. I think I swallowed a bug.

Nrchy, at least you are on the right track now. The Krell is a big step up from what you were using. Now for the CDP.