benjosepf1,
I'd suggest you audition the M700s in your room and system. I think you'll find that the M700s are a very good match with your Rogue 99 tube preamp if you like the sonic qualities of this preamp.
The main characteristics you'll likely notice on the class D mono-blocks is that they have a very low noise floor, very low distortion levels and that they're very neutral. They are like the audio ideal of a straight wire with gain meaning nothing is added or subtracted from the inputted signal. This will result in the combination of the sonic qualities of your source components, the recordings and the Rogue 99 tubed preamp the main determinants of your system's overall sound, since the M700s will just be faithfully amplifying this combination's output without any added sound quality of its own.
You should be aware that class D amps are very accurate and revealing which can sound very good if the quality of your recordings and other components in your system are of high quality. However, if the quality of your recordings and other components in your system have deficiencies, class D amps will not sugar coat anything and you will be clearly aware of any deficiencies.
The downside of using class D amps is that the quality of some of your music , that sounded good to you through your previous amp, will not sound equally as good if it wasn't well recorded because the accuracy and transparency of a good class D amp will expose that deficiency. I use a pair of D-Sonic M3-600-M class D mono-blocks in my system and, fortunately, only my Coldplay albums were exposed as poorly recorded.
The flipside of this, using class D amps with well recorded music, will be sound quality performance levels that are exceptionally good. Music emerges from a dead quiet background with live-music-like dynamics and a very detailed presentation that still sounds smooth, organic and natural.
I suggest you give the M700s an audition and experience good class D performance and decide for yourself if you like the overall sound quality in your system. I definitely advise doing so before buying anything else to ensure you make an informed decision.
Enjoy
Tim
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Great, please post back on this thread with your impressions.
Enjoy,
Tim
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Elizabeth:
"Some responses... one would think they are the President of the company they have such a strong desire to 'sell' a product to others. I would just add a lot of the selling going on is fan boy praise. Folks just love something and will say and do anything to get others to join the club. So IMO a little standing back and taking a deep breath. Realize some folks are very persuasive, and you may not get the same love' for whatever they are 'selling'/praising to the skies. Just sayin'"
Hello Elizabeth,
Are you referring to me with your comments?
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benjosef1: "reflecting on your comments, I am curious as to why you think I should not consider PS Audio (gammonit-2000)"
Hello benjosef1,
If you're directing your comment to me, I don't think I ever stated you should not consider the PS Audio Gammonit-2000. I actually wasn't even aware of this amp, which I assume is a new product. I went to www.psaudio.com and didn't find any mention of this amp. I also googled it and only saw references to this thread. I really can't comment on products I'm not even aware of.
If you could post a link to any info on this amp, I'd be glad to learn more about it and offer my opinion. I'm fairly knowledgeable about class D amps in general but this one is new to me.
Thanks,
Tim |
Hello benjosef1,
Hah! Well, that explains why I couldn't find any info. Duh.
" I agree with Elizabeth and others who said you have to take recommendations with a grain of salt- a lot of this boils down to personal taste- and one has to judge for himself/herself."
I completely agree, too. It's just such a broad brush statement that I don't know who she's directing it at. Everybody, a few people, me? I don't believe she was referring to me, but who knows? I actually welcome constructive criticism but prefer it to be more directly delivered.
Anyhow, It is good advice that I'm glad you're aware of. I try to be as honest and helpful as I'm able to be. Of course, I realize I may occasionally approach 'fan boy' status when discussing gear that I've personally had especially positive experiences owning or using such as class D amps and 4-sub distributed bass array systems. But I believe this is really just the epitome of honest and helpful advice.
My intent is typically to spread the word on equipment that I've personally used or owned, I've experienced very positive results with and I think is relevant and helpful. If my enthusiasm is misconstrued by others as a strong desire to sell someone something, I'm not very concerned provided all my comments are completely truthful and I have no financial incentive.
I also like to advise others to try and buy products that have generous return policies and free in-home trial periods. This significantly reduces the risks involved. I believe PS offers a 30-day full refund policy and offers price discounts for equipment trade-ins.
Lastly, I strongly suggest you don't even consider that PS Audio Gammonit-2000 amp.
Later,
Tim
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d2girls:"both of these amps will sound identical with your loudspeaker assuming they arent wilsons with a sub 1ohm impedance dip. any differences in the midrange and bass will be placebo. amps do not sound different from one another assuming they are driving a well designed speaker with a smooth impedance modulus and phase."
Hello d2girls,
First a few grammar questions: Is your Shift key broken on your device or do you just don’t want to be bothered capitalizing the initial letter on the initial word of each sentence? Is it intended to convey you’re whispering? Perhaps your formal education was cut short after kindergarten for some unfortunate reason?
In any case, it’s very annoying and I thought it’d be constructive feedback for you to realize your odd writing style is communicating more to readers than just your actual intended meaning. The above are only the dubious impressions of yourself that you communicated to me through your nonuse of simple and universally accepted capitalization practices. I’m fairly certain you’re communicating additional negative impressions of yourself to others.
Second a few questions on the content of your post: How limited is your knowledge and experience of home audio to make the presumably honest claim that these very different amps will sound identical to each other when driving the same speakers?
These amps are completely different brands, using completely different technologies and designs. Do you believe all high quality amps regardless of brand, design or being class A, AB, D or tube will sound the same on an identical given pair of speakers?
Based on my personal experience auditioning and comparing used models of the Bryston 4BST and Parasound A21 class AB stereo amps with a new pair of class D D-Sonic M3-600-M mono-block amps in my system all driving my Magnepan 2.7QR speakers, they definitely sounded significantly different from my perspective. I was very impressed with both the Bryston and Parasound amps in my system. I thought they sounded remarkably similar to each other and would certainly recommend either one to anyone desiring a slightly warmer and more forgiving quality added to their overall system sound.
I decided to purchase the D-Sonic monos mainly because I perceived them as having a more neutral presentation which more closely resembles the audio amp ideal of a ’straight wire with gain’. But I also perceived a lower noise floor, better bass response, increased dynamics and very similar detail levels and 3-D soundstage imaging capabilities of the D-Sonics when compared to the Bryston and Parasound amps. The used stereo Bryston or Parasound amp along with a new pair of the D-Sonic mono amps were all priced at about $2,000 so that wasn’t a consideration. The smaller size, lower weight, higher electrical efficiency, cooler operating temperature and the ability to leave them powered on 24/7, however, were also valid considerations in favor of the D-Sonics which may have also tipped the scales in their direction.
I noticed there’s a few individuals on this thread, namely gammonit_2000 and Elizabeth, that have for unspecified reasons dismissed the possibility that the PS Audio M700 mono-blocks will perform very well in your system. I believe this lack of open-mindedness, willful ignorance, blind loyalty to a certain amp brand/type or however it is accurately described is just, at its root, a manifestation of their desire to rationalize an amp purchase they’ve already made. I suggest you value their advise accordingly.
I believe, as you’ve stated you believe, that the ideal method is likely listening to both in your system and deciding for yourself which you prefer. I understand this may not be possible with the Bryston 4B3, but the next best option is probably to visit the nearest Bryston dealer, bring along some familiar music and have them audition the 4B3 paired with a tube preamp and on speakers as similar to yours as possible. Heck, even bring your preamp and interconnects along if it’s not too much trouble. You also already know there’s virtually zero risk with the M700s since you have about a month to try them in your system to make sure you really like them. I’m not certain but I doubt you’ll be able to do the same with a Bryston amp.
The only advise/caution I would add is that the sound qualities of your Rogue tube preamp, or really any preamp’s sonic qualities, will be clearly noticeable when using good quality class D amplification. As will the clarity of any tube, cabling, power cord, recording quality or any other upstream changes in your system. If you’re not absolutely in love with the sonic qualities of your preamp, class D amps are not going to help by masking or flavoring anything.
Best wishes,
Tim
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Hello benjosef1,
I thought I should let you know that I’ve never personally auditioned the PS Audio M700 class D amps in my or any system. My suggestion you give them a try in your system was mainly based on professional reviews of their high quality performance, my knowledge and experiences of the high quality performance and sound quality levels attainable through good class D amps in general, the absence of any financial risks to you and the M700’s many other practical advantages over more traditional amps like the Bryston 4B3 and the PS BHK 250 such as size, weight, higher electrical efficiency, cooler operating temperature and affordability.
I believe snapsc’s suggestion of checking out the Digital Amplifier Company’s class D offerings is also very good advice. It emphasizes the points that you have many amp choices at your apparent budget, PS Audio doesn’t have a monopoly on very good class D sound performance and that learning about and listening to as many amps, of all types and technologies preferably in your own system, as possible is an excellent method of determining what you like and don’t like in an amp. You’ll not only be able to make a better informed amp choice for yourself but also be gaining valuable general amp knowledge and experience at the same time.
The last topic I wanted to caution you about is the surprisingly deep-seated ’amp type bias’ that I believe definitely exists, in varying degrees, among many members here on Audiogon and among audio/music enthusiasts in general. I first noticed this here on threads about 6 years ago when I initially began to become interested in class D amplification but it still currently persists. Elizabeth wisely cautioned about this amp type bias in an earlier post on this thread when she warned of class D "fanboys" and taking their advice with a grain of salt.
Good advice that I would suggest we all may want to expand to be wary of any advice giver’s amp type bias since identifying it can often be tricky. For example, Elizabeth wisely cautions of class D biased advice givers even while demonstrating her own bias favoring class AB amps in her first post on this thread when she stated she has zero interest in a PS Audio class D amp. Although her bias requires paying close attention and a modicum of memory, at least she identifies and admits to her own bias which many others completely fail to do when offering advice.
This is probably an opportune time for me to admit to my current bias toward class D amps and finally get to the point of this post. The truth is that virtually everyone with the sufficient meaningful knowledge of, and experience listening to, the various amp types to have developed an amp type bias just means they’ve discovered the amp type that has the qualities that they personally prefer in their own systems. In other words, they’ve developed an opinion based on an open minded and unbiased process of learning about and listening to the various amp types.
However, I suspect that many individuals continue attaining meaningful knowledge and listening experiences as well as keeping an open mind only to the point of selecting an amp to use in their own system. Once they purchase their amp of choice, human nature seems to dictate a shift in thinking and behavior more focused on defending and rationalizing their purchase decision rather than continuing an ongoing learning and experiencing process that explores the various existing and newer amp types in an open minded and fair manner.
My suggestion is to take all audio advice with a grain of salt, mine included, and instead seek to educate yourself via research and frequent auditioning of audio gear, preferably in your own system and room to keep any variables to a minimum. I believe trusting the objectivity of others advice on which amps to utilize in your own system is a poor substitute for learning, listening and deciding for one’s self.
Tim
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Hello Elizabeth,
Thank you. I believe we're all afflicted in varying degrees with biases that are not useful in life, choosing an audio amp or in giving advice on choosing an audio amp. Of course, these biases are more detrimental and consequential regarding some issues than others but a little self awareness never hurts.
I'm glad we agree and I appreciate your comments of agreement. Maybe there's hope for us disagreeable and biased humans after all.
Later,
Tim
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Hello gammonit_2000,
Agreed, as long as you buy a model that still carries a 20 year warranty. I believe Bryston reduced the length on some of their models.
Tim
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gammonit_2000, Looks like you're correct except for a few detals, below is from Bryston's website: Warranty Details Bryston analog audio products and loud speakers are warranted to be free from manufacturing defects for twenty (20) years from the original date of manufacture. The warranty includes parts and labour. Speaker warranty is limited to the first time buyer and is non-transferable.
Bryston Digital products and cables are warranted for five (5) years from the original date of manufacture. The warranty includes parts and labour.
Bryston products having motorized moving parts, excluding motorized volume controls, are warranted for three years from the original date of manufacture. The warranty includes parts and labour.
Bryston will remedy the problem by repair or replacement, as we deem necessary, to restore the product to full performance. Bryston will pay return shipping costs for the full length of the specific product’s warranty.
Tim |
gammonit_2000,
Have you ever tried a good quality class D amp in your system or heard one in any system?
Tim
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gammonit_2000: "noble 100 I haven’t, I need power and low impedance capability. I went from 300 watts to 600 watts a channel. These Infinity Kappa 8s need lots of juice down to literally under an ohm. Am I missing something in the Class D department?" Hello gammonit, Are you missing something in the class D department? As a matter of fact, I believe there are a pair of mono-block class D amps that may perform extremely well with your notoriously difficult to drive Kappa 8s. They're the original D-Sonic M2-1500-M2 class D monos that were reviewed very favorably on this 6 Moons review back in 2012. In the review these amps were auditioned on the Apogee Duetta planar-magnetic speakers, which I believe also present speaker loads to the amps of down to literally under an ohm, with very good results. D-Sonic claims stability into below 2 ohm loads but apparently they're stiil stable even lower. These amps are rated at 1,500 watts into an 8 ohm load, 2,400 into 4, deliver 160V and 30A and were priced new at $1,075 each at the time. Here’s a link to that review: https://6moons.com/audioreviews/dsonic/4.html Yes, this is from 7 years ago but I was thinking you could probably purchase a used pair currently for a reduced price if any owners are selling. Or, you could try out a new pair of their current version, the M3a-1500M that uses the latest Pascal class D power modules for $1,375 each, $2,750/pair. These have the same power output and the very low speaker impedance load capacity as the M2 series but now have a bit more neutral overall sound quality and several added internal monitoring safety features. Here’s a link to the new D-Sonic monoblock amps: https://www.d-sonic.com/products/m3a-1500m-mono-amplifier-per-channel.html I’m not sure which amp or amps you’re currently using on your Kappa 8s. However, I’d venture to guess they’re good quality but large, heavy, expensive, hot running requiring large heatsinks, inefficient class AB amps that currently perform and sound sufficiently good to you that you’re not actively searching for replacement amps right now. I’m fairly certain that, if you paid less than $50,000 for your current amp(s), either a used or new pair of the top of the line mono D-Sonic amps will outperform them by a significant margin in sound quality while also being much smaller, lighter, more affordable, cooler running and consuming a fraction of the electricity. I believe that’s what you’re missing in the class D department. Tim |
Hello gammonit_2000,
I know your Brystons are nice amps but I know a good class D pair of monoblocks will also at a minimum match them on sound quality and pay for itself fairly quickly just on all the electricity you'd save, even if you left them on 24/7.
Yes, rf interference can be an issue if the power modules aren't properly shielded internally. But virtually all the good quality class D amps are properly shielded and you shouldn't have any issues. I have three, a Class D Audio SDA-440-CS and Emerald Physics EA-100.2SE stereo amps and a pair of D-Sonic M3-600-M mono-blocks, and I've never had any interference issues. There's no special shielding requirements you need to take except buying a good quality amp from a good company.
The problem is finding an audio shop to audition one. Most class D amp companies sell internet direct to keep prices low. But you can usually purchase the amp and get about 30 days to try it out at home in your system. If you like it, you just keep it. If you don't, you just send it back and get a full refund, no questions asked.
Just an fyi, these amps are very neutral and revealing, like the audio ideal of 'a straight wire with gain'. If upstream components and recordings are not high quality, it'll be easily noticed since there's no flavoring or coloring going on, nothing's added or subtracted from the inputted signals. On the plus side you'll easily notice the effects of system changes, even power cord and cabling changes.
I sincerely believe you'd be pleasantry surprised by the hi-end performance level of the numerous good class D amps currently available at relative bargain prices.
Tim
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Hello Karl,
I have no problem with individuals criticizing any amp or amp type if it's based on personal experience. I was hearing the same accolades and criticisms repeatedly of class D amps about 10 years ago on Audiogon forums and was curious about class D but didn't know who to believe.
Most of the accolades were coming from those that had dared to try a class D amp in their system But I had a hunch that many of those repeating common criticisms of class D performance had never even heard a good class D amp in their systems or any system.
So, I just bought a Class D Audio SDS-440-CS amp with a 28-day free in-home trial period for about $600 and decided to find out for myself if class D was any good. That was 10 yrs ago when I used all good quality class AB amps(Aragon, Adcom and McCormack) in my combo music and HT system.
The results of my personal experience comparing good class D amp performance with good class AB amps in my system and room are best summed up by the fact that I now utilize all class D amps, from three different companies (Class D Audio, Emerald Physics and D-Sonic) in my combo system.
The main intent of my comments to you are not to bash you for bashing class D, although I believe you deserve some bashing for bashing class D without any personal listening experience with it, but to suggest you would probably enjoy their performance and other characteristics in your own system.
But I do appreciate the reasonableness of your post and your intention to try to audition a good class D amp. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised.
Thank you,
Tim
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Hello Karl,
Yes, no doubt the Bryston 4BSST is a very competent amp. I've read very positive professional reviews of the class D M700s but have never personally heard them. I'm also looking forward to hearing his impressions, hopefully he'll be posting again soon.
Tim
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