There is another way. Without rehashing, there is a good thread from about a month ago where I detailed what I am doing. Post any questions after you have read it.
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1313888931&&&/Are-you-recording-your-vinyl- |
Licorice,
What I'm doing does not require an analog to digital converter. I record to the Korg MR2000s, i then transfer the data to my computer via a USB cable. You wouldnt have to do anything to your computer to get the data on there....no cards, etc.
Now then, you will need a digital to analog converter for playback. For your application, simple is better. Depending on your budget, we could all recommend our favorite USB DAC.
Buy a Korg (street price $1500 or so), plug into your Preamp's tape output, record some vinyl, transfer the files. Once the data in on your PC, the Audiogate software included with the Korg will strip out the individual tracks wherever you specify in the format you specify, then you can import into iTunes or your player of choice, enter the song info and you are done.
Then just play it through the dac you choose and you are good to go. |
Licorice.....please review....you do NOT need a sound card for your PC, as a matter of fact, it will be irrelevant with a USB DAC. As far as getting the Vinyl onto you computer, I highlighted 1 method via the Korg DSD recorder. This recorder is stupid good.....picture this is probably in alot of studios, certainly utilized by many live recording venues/bands. There is no better digital format than DSD, you can record it in 5.6mhz DSD and then convert it to whatever sample rate you desire.
A poster above recommended a NAD piece which indicates he has never done this and further does not understand what you are trying to accomplish. There is NO higher resolution method than DSD to digitally archive your vinyl. Period! Anyone who has heard my best vinyl recorded in DSD and then played back via my MacMini/Pure Music on my Playback Designs MPD-3 are blown away.
Good luck and please ignore those recommending MP3 turntables and $200 NAD phono stages/DACs and the like. They mean well but have simply not seen enough to know what they are talking about. |
I'll "enlighten" as best I can. The solution I describe is merely 1 way to accomplish archiving your vinyl into a digital file(s).
Pretend the Korg is a tape deck. For those of us old enough to remember those days, you simply play your album and press record on the Korg. You may get up between each track to press a button to "mark" the gap between tracks if you choose to.( Me, i just record and add track marks later.) When side 1 is complete, you press pause, cue side 2 and press record again.....when side 2 is over you press stop. Ok, now we have a file that resides on the hard drive of the Korg. You may play it back in DSD from the Korg right then if you like OR you may move the data onto your computer. The Korg appears as a USB hard drive to your computer, so if you can move a file today you have it down already.
Now that it is on your computer, you open the supplied Audiogate software, add track markers at the appropriate times, name the tracks and then convert from the DSD to your desired format from 16/44, 24/96 and so on. Now you are ready to have itunes or your player of choice to import the files, which is a piece of cake.
The advantages of this method is you will have a DSD archive of the vinyl as played from your table, cartridge and phono stage. So if you like your phono stage, you will like the results. The downside of this method is your archived copy may be colored(by the fingerprint of your phono stage). Rob at Pure Music favors another method. In summary, he advocates feeding your table into a microphone preamp and then into a A to D converter and then into your computer.(unless you find a high quality A to D converter with usb, you will need to make sure your computer has an interface capable of capturing the data and from then on Pure Vinyl will apply the appropriate RIAA equalization. You will still have to enter track data....no way around that.) You will be recording "live" to your computer's storage through his Pure Vinyl software. You are limited to 24/192 and Pure Vinyl requires a Mac but I am sure the steps are similar on a PC with the appropriate software.
I can't tell you how the Pure Vinyl sounds, I suspect though that it sounds very good. I chose my route through the Korg because it is simpler (for those of us who used to "tape" our albums) and the Korg is optimized for recording from analog feeds, converting to digital and storing it on a hard drive. I also believe the Korg fully contained with only one real A to D step is likely to introduce less jitter, which we all have discovered to varying degrees is the biggest culprit to digital musical enjoyment.
Feel free to ask any questions you like, i will answer them all. I dont however consider myself an expert, I just believe this is the simplest high quality archival method. Does this allow you to remove pops & ticks like Pure Vinyl, no. Play your vinyl, then play your digital version and the results will be SCARY close. If you have some great albums, you will be shocked at how close your recording will sound to your vinyl....depending on the quality of your vinyl rig and the resolution of the rest of your system, you may find the comparison indistinguishable. |
Orpheus10, i just googled "DAK 2800" and i got a hit, as I was completely unfamiliar with DAK. Please tell me what I uncovered by googling is NOT what you are recommending. What I found was a $69 (sixty nine) mixer capable of handling 2 turntables, RIAA equalization, a microphone and all software included to "convert your LP's to broadcast quality MP3's". Is this the same product to which you refer? If it is, I don't believe we are comparing apples to apples.....I'm sure you are enjoying your music however this will explain why your digital and analog sound so similar to one another. I'm just asking if I found the appropriate product you are touting to archive vinyl. |
Orpheus, thanks for the reply and I am glad that you are enjoying your music, that's what it is all about isn't it?
As an aside, you may catch some flack around here if you advocate too vociferously that coverting your vinyl to MP3 is remotely high quality. As long as you enjoy it, that is what is important but it is an accidental disservice on your part providing vinyl conversion advice to someone looking for answers without disclosing you are converting to MP3. Like many on this site, I find MP3 lacking considerably qualitatively. Just trying to be kind.... |
Orpheus, please don't be defensive, i am trying to be very kind and understanding....I am actually not at all surprised that you didn't know the difference based on your posts in this thread.
MP3 files are a serious compromise.....data is intentionally omitted in order to shrink the file size. The typical MP3 track will be about 5mb. A standard redbook(16/44) cd track is about 80mb, a 24/192 sample of the same track is around 800mb. So for a MP3 track versus the other samples you can do the math and see how much data is missing.
I'm not saying a person can't enjoy MP3's.....you are enjoying your music and that is cool. I'm not trying to insult you at all but you might consider reading up about MP3's and the material sonic compromise inherent with them. At the other end of the spectrum, in my earlier posts, I have referred to 1 bit DSD or Direct Stream Digital. There is no higher quality method to record digitally today. It is the closest quality wise to an analog master tape and lower in noise.
I hope this dialogue has been helpful and a mild mea culpa on your part, following some research on your part, could help you save some face. We all have to learn sometime and alot of high quality music is in store for you! Imagine more of your favorite music with inner detail you've never heard awaits! Warm regards and happy listening. |
Good morning Orpheus. Let's try this a different way. What sound card are you using to capture your data? PC/system setup. Wav or Mp3, its the sample rate that we are trying to get to. It is extremely relevant and you have yet to disclose that, which will helpful to the original poster when evaluating his/her options. But the sample rate is only part of the equation, the quality of the A to D conversion is the other part. While i have never seen a Dak 2800, i have no doubt it is proving to be a cost effective manner to get your analog signal to your PC.
All of your conversion from analog to digital is currently ocurring at your sound card within your windows PC. That can be pretty noisy not to mention inferior in sound quality but I will withold my specific opinion until you specify your computer setup and sound card. You may have your sound card isolated etc. |
Also, please be sure to include a brief description of your digital to analog conversion you currently utilize for playback and the method you play it.....itunes...etc? |
Orpheus10, thanks for the reply.
I'm not quite sure where to begin so I will take a pass on commenting on your setup. I'm glad you enjoy your archived vinyl and I am now more confident than ever that your digital and archived digital copies of your vinyl are virtually indistinguishable to your ears. You really do owe it to yourself however to demo a good USB dac in your system. Bypassing your sound card and listening to a ripped CD or downloaded high resolution digital might be a revelation to you. Of course, if after doing so you still prefer your current digital setup then you will be dollars ahead.
Best wishes and enjoy the music. |
Orpheus, I have been very polite, exceedingly so in my opinion and I would like to keep it that way.
Please note that I said GOOD USB dac....re:Ayre, Wavelength, ARC...there are so many good ones out there that you really should hear the difference if you love music. There is one for every budget as well, especially used.
You have found happiness in your setup and that is cool but for you to pop off about your digital setup is comical. Fire back if you really want to know what I think and I will oblige.....not that I am an expert by any stretch. Can you REALLY see Russia from your house? |
Orpheus, how can you refer to me as a "snob audiophile" when anyone with a grasp of the English language can bear witness to the fact that I was so "gentle" with you through our dialogue.
I did not say that your equipment is not good, i was merely trying to point out that if someone is a serious vinyl afficianado and were trying to discover a method of truly archiving their vinyl, that your method is probably not what they were looking for. My method may not work for others either. I wasn't telling you to go buy an ARC USB DAC, which dealers are having a hard time keeping in stock, I was recommending that you ought to hear what is possible, that's all.
My system sounds good to me, your system sounds good to you, so we are both happy. I worked hard to get into college, worked hard in college, worked hard in my career, worked hard in graduate school and have worked hard in my second career. I have about 2 months worth of pay invested in my system and I don't consider it bleeding edge. It works for me, is actually pretty simple, many fewer cables and wires than yours. I just enjoy music.
For you to refer to me as a snob is unfair and unwelcome, I'm far from it. Look at my feedback, read my posts, i simply try to add to the wonderful dialogue we enjoy here on Audiogon. If anyone in this thread is a snob, it would be the person not open to open discussion and a free exchange of ideas. There is more than one way to accomplish anything and you have explained yours, i have explained mine and others will certainly share theirs. |
Orpheus, thanks. I don't know what gear you have other than the digital setup you mentioned in this thread. Rather than hijack this person's thread any further, you should start a new thread, list your gear, set forth a budget that must be adhered to and I will sincerely provide my opinion. The usual disclaimers will apply, I don't consider myself an expert other than to say I have made every mistake you can make in this hobby.
My personal philosophy on archiving vinyl is based on the premise of maximizing the quality of the archive, even if a person's current setup is incapable of reproducing the incremental resolution. We do this because we all recognize that the rest of the system is only as good as what we input. |
Ok Orpheus, i have been holding back but you have to take a step back and listen for a second. I don't know your age nor your demographic but you don't seem to be reading between the lines very well. Your setup for recording your vinyl digitally must be fine for you but it is likely not what the original poster was asking for. Let's review shall we?
If the topic of this thread had been "is there any way to capture vinyl digitally and play it back, regardless of quality, for $300 or less" then you would be the big winner but it wasn't. The original poster was asking if someone was archiving and what they were doing. You answered which is your right however your method is so poor soncially that I am surprised you even felt motivated to post. I think its cool that you enjoy it I really do. But to run your vinyl through that POS DAK piece, into the noisiest environment on Earth(the inside of a PC) equipped with a marginal sound card just makes my head hurt! Your DAC is probably not that bad as far as $150 DACs($75 on the used market) go.
I keep waiting for you to jump out of the bushes with Ashton Kuchar and tell me I have been Punkd but you are evidently serious because you continue to recommend a setup that shows what is possible for a $300 investment, not what is possible for sound quality. The really expensive part of archiving vinyl is one's time. The OP stated he had a metric shytload of vinyl and wanted to archive it.....YOUR METHOD IS NOT EVEN REMOTELY ARCHIVE QUALITY!!!!! |
Orpheus, are you absolutely mental? Do you get out much? Is that ankle monitor that confining?
I mentioned the Korg MR2000 1 bit DSD digital recorder as 1 method for archiving one's vinyl. Have you looked it up? You can record your vinyl to the Korg, with no computer in the chain and only 1 set of cables. All of the analog to digital conversion happens inside of a darn quiet environment electrically and the sample rate choices represent every widely used sample rate available today. All for a street price of less than $1,500!
I got the idea for using the Korg by reading about MANY different methods but I wanted to archive my vinyl at the highest quality and sample rate available, and then I went to a few live shows of some world class musicians/groups. I did not have a budget in mind when I started the journey, just the quality requirement. It is amazing how many musicians/recording venues/et al use the Korg DSD recorders for capturing their performances for later commercial release. (I had unlimited backstage/venue access, which if I were to explain how you would surely think of me as a snob).
I used to have an Intel based PC with a Soundblaster audio card.....perfect for gaming and casual listening, not for reference level audio reproduction. I switched to MAC. When you mentioned your Soundblaster was in your recording chain, your credibility on this subject fell off of a cliff. Initially, i just thought you didn't know any better and I was trying to be polite and possibly expose you to another way....notice I didn't say my way, right way, perfect way.....I'm not claiming I know it all but your repeated insistence that your vinyl recording method is really good just continues to erode your credibility, if you ever had any. |
Actually yes, there are stop signs and I am able to converse with all of the friendly people in my neighborhood about the goings on in the world. The economy, our health, our families....all pleasant. Most are employed, the unemployed typically by choice due to fortunate circumstances.
I just checked with them and ALL OF THEM AGREE THAT THE SOUNDBLASTER IS A POS SOUND CARD!!!! |
Orpheus, there are in fact some similarities with the neighborhood analogy. Peaceful, check. Share with others, check. Open to learning from others, check. Each person is different, check. Soundblaster sound cards are not suitable for high quality audio, check. Anyone who says otherwise may be misguided and we should not pick on them, check. For that reason, I will try to refrain from further communication with you. The temptation may prove too attractive, we'll just have to see.
The dialogue with you can be frustrating because you obviously love music, as do I. You won't list your equipment or methods so others may evaluate your position to determine if there is sufficient validation of your assertions. You have now descended into the na-na na-na-na category which I find consistent with your apparent depth of knowledge. Over the course of my almost 30 yearcareer, I have worked with some wonderful people from all walks of life, with all different perspectives and levels of knowledge. Measuring in the thousands by now, I never once worked with anyone like you. I guess I never took the time I'm sorry to say....I typically just let them go and opened the position for someone who had room to grow. Good luck and again, I strongly assert, I am glad you enjoy your music played back through your system, that's all that matters. |
Onhwy61, you are correct and I should have just let the thread go its on way, without commentary. I originally just thought that Orpheus didn't know what he was talking about. As far as "state of the art", the Korg is not what I would call state of the art. I would call it a highly effective solution without the need for alot of technical knowledge.
As far as what the original poster was wanting, unlike some, I actually took the time to read some of his posts PRIOR to commenting. I saw where he uses a VPI record cleaner daily and the rituals he uses to play back vinyl I found consistent with those looking for a high quality method. If I misread the intent of the OP, well then my apologies again. As far as picking on Orpheus for his insistence on recommending the Soundblaster, again, I apologize to the community at large. |
"Orpheus just wishes you leave Orpheus out all together."
Agreed, i'm not trying to flame you, i just saw where you mentioned me again in your post and stated it was either you can't hear or you have the best vinyl to digital......i'll leave that to others to decide which is which.
I do agree with you, parts quality is important....almost as important as the designers implementation of same. I'm glad you are digging your music.
We can call a truce if you like, consider this an olive branch! Now, back to the purpose of this forum which is to learn from one another and avoid the pitfalls that populate this hobby. |
Onhwy61 is correct, there are numerous ways to get the data onto your PC or your Mac and most will be enjoyable. We should however all check back in 5 years and I believe most manufacturers still in business will have adopted, embraced and furthered the DSD format. The beauty of recording in DSD is that you are not limited to DSD or PCM. You could archive in 5.6mhz DSD (double the resolution of SACD) and output to any PCM format you choose, optimizing playback through your current digital player of choice. Most of the solutions out there as mentioned in Onhwy61's post require you to make a sample rate commitment up front be it 24/96, 16/44.1 or 24/192. There simply isn't a more affordable way to archive at the highest quality available.
As far as Korg and whether they will be making DSD recorders 5 years from now.....well, they have been in business since 1963, have been making DSD recorders since 2006 and when you look at what about $1500 gets you, it is really an amazing bargain. I have no affiliation to Korg other than as a consumer but as a method to record your music from an analog signal digitally, there is simply no better $1500 solution available. I am however always open to new ideas and equipment. Something may come out next week that addresses everything for less and since I am always glad to try something new. I would urge you to call your local Korg dealer and see if they have a MR2000 in stock available for demo to try it. Good luck all. |
Orpheus, REALLY? REALLY!?!?
Licorice and others who may be interested, simply check with your local pro audio dealer and see if you can demo one and see for yourself. Demoing is the only way and listen in your system. Archiving vinyl does take time so starting the process with a satisfactory recording chain is paramount. I happen to find it enjoyable to record an album a few times a week.
Orpheus has discovered a way to record his vinyl in the following manner, as I understand it:
His turntable connected to his phono stage, then connected to his DAK box (ca $70), then connected to his Soundblaster pc soundcard (ca $100~) recorded real time to his pc hard drive. He plays back through his Music Streamer dac (ca $150). He doesn't mention his associated equipment or cabling, all of which I am sure is excellent, but it would be helpful if it was listed.
I have listed 1 way to record your vinyl, there are others. Any of them are better than nothing but our time is pretty valuable so I was merely looking for a manner that replicated as closely as I could the nuances and special sound qualities that vinyl brings to the table. The Korg is an easy method. Plug it in, connect some interconnects, cue the vinyl, press record. Once you have recorded to the Korg, move the files to your PC hard drive, convert to the sample rate(s) of your choosing from your DSD master and you are good to go.
Another way that is probably better in many areas is to buy a Mac, buy Pure Vinyl, buy a microphone pre amp, buy an analog to digital coverter and record directly from your turntable, bypassing the RIAA equalizer that is built in to your phono stage. The pure vinyl software will accept sample rates up to 24/192 and then the Pure Vinyl software can manipulate the data, automatically records/stops with the needle drop and has sophisticated tick/pop removal algorithms to minimize those artifacts. Pure Vinyl has all of the RIAA eq curves built in and you can choose from the many variations introduced over the past 60 or so years to see which one is best for the particular recording. I chose the Korg because it was inexpensive in audiophle terms and uncomplicated.
I'm not trying to sell anything to anyone as Orpheus implies nor am I trying to convince anyone this is the best way....I am however saying this is the best inexpensive way to record your vinyl at the highest digital resolution currently available, 5.6 mhz DSD. I just wish Orpheus would list his system and the sample rates/recording format so you can evaluate the reproduction chain.
For the record again (I've listed this is another thread, but for context) my current main system is as follows:
Rega P5/Exact 2/TTPSU
VAC Sigma 160i (utilizing inboard phono stage, NOS 12AX7 Mullards)
Playback Designs MPD-3 DAC
KORG MR2000S Digital DSD recorder
Wilson Audio Duettes
Running Springs Jaco power conditioner
Cardas Clear Light speaker cables and interconnects throughout
Cardas Clear M power cables
Locus Design Polestar USB cable to DAC |
Licoricepizza, I'm glad you are enjoying the music and get an idea of what a recording from the Korg sounds like in 16/44.1 redbook resolution. good luck with your archiving journey....like all nice trips, it's no fun until you start!
Peace, GH |
