Congrats on your new speakers and listen to Ct0517 for setup advise; he knows his stuff. I have heard the 801's in at least five recording studios and at least that many non-studio setups, and learned very quickly just how good these speakers are. Not because the sound was always so great, but because it ranged from "what-the-f%#k" bad to incredibly good. There is a reason that these are/were used in so many studios. They are very revealing of what you feed them; not only in the usual "too bright" or "too dark" sense, but of subtle instrumental textures and phase issues. I have heard some setups using dated digital equipment or mediocre ss amplification sound practically unbearable over the 801's. I also have heard some of the most memorable and realistic sounding playback from them. 801's powered by the classic Conrad Johnson Premier 1 tube amp produced one of the most realistic sounds I have ever heard with fantastic (and correct) mid and lower midrange fullness, image density and dimensionality. I would take that setup in an instant. Enjoy them! |
****After trying both the Parasound and the MAC I can hear that I need a really good SS amp with an appropriate amount of power. ****
Wemfan, could you elaborate on that comment? Earlier, from your description of the differences between the sound of the Mac and the Parasound, one would get the impression that the Mac sounded much better to you:
**** ..... how much more definition and clarity the MAC had over
the Parasound through the B&Ws. The Parasound was also a little muddy. ****
Do you feel that you need a good ss amp because you think that only ss will give you enough power, or because you have changed your mind about preferring ss attributes vs those of tubes?
My recommendation of the VTL was precisely because that is an affordable used alternative that will give you lots of power with good bass control (a typical ss attribute) and, being a tube amp, classic tube attributes like dimensionality and fullness of tone through the midrange. You describe yourself as a "tube guy"; then why ss?
Now, for a bit of unsolicited advise of the kind that is difficult to express and can be misinterpreted; so, I apologize ahead of time:
Remember that you are on an audiophile forum. Audiophiles most certainly also "like things that sound good" and "how music sounds is important" to audiophiles also; that is the nature of the beast. Having said that, it is also true that, generally speaking, musicians tend to give priority to certain sonic attributes. In my experience, and as a musician myself, those tend to be in the areas of midrange (especially lower midrange) fullness and micro dynamics; hence my recommendation of something like the VTL's. As a musician who has been poking around this forum for some time I would encourage you to not dwell too much on the presumed differences between how musicians and audiophiles listen to music; it will ensure the best dialogue and best advise. |
****The speakers are rated 50 - 600 wpc at 8 ohms. From my experiences
what actual wattages are needed from a capable amp will be based on size
of space, how close you will be sitting to them, the kind of music genre you
will be playing, and how loud. **** - Ct0517
****I recently acquired a Parasound Halo A31 (250 watts per channel) for a
system in a bedroom and hadn't heard it yet. The difference between this
amp and the MAC with the B&Ws was really huge. Of course, the
Parasound added a bunch of really good tight bass slam as you would
expect but the little MAC was no slouch in the bass department either.
What really surprised me was playing Patti Griffin in a very laid back
acoustic track was how much more definition and clarity the MAC had over
the Parasound through the B&Ws. The Parasound was also a little muddy.
It is a $3k amp and really not up to what I would want to run through these
speakers. I was surprised comparing these amps through the 801s. You
could go out and have a cup of coffee and come back and you would have
no trouble telling which amp was playing. They sounded that different from
each other. **** - Wemfan
Personally, I would not get hung up on the wattage only; within reason, of
course, since you do seem to like your music fairly loud. IMO, the above
comments demonstrate that to a significant extent that is not what will
guarantee satisfying results. You seem to have a clear sense of what
qualities you are looking for in the sound of the system and you mentioned
that you are a musician. Being a musician you are probably very sensitive
to things like subtle instrumental texture, micro dynamics and the kind of
tonal fullness that is not always heard from many audiophile rigs; this is not
meant to slight audiophiles, but is simply about priorities.
Some really good amplifier suggestions so far. But, IMO, short of the very
best, solid state amplification does not excel in the areas mentioned to the
degree that decent tube amps do. But, given your listening habits and your
speakers I think you will need some significant wattage. One amplifier that
comes to mind for your 801's that comes up used fairly regularly and for a
very reasonable price is the VTL 300 mono; lots of power and good
bass control with the classic tube attributes. When you say that the Mac
"simply doesn't have enough horsepower" is it a borderline case
or not even in the ballpark? You describe bass and drums as incredible
with the Mac; you seem to really like the sound. Have you considered
adding a second Mc275 in a vertical biamp arrangement? Might be
enough power and guarantees the sound you already like and probably a
refinement of that. Good luck. |
Excellent points. I was not aware that the MC275 can be easily configured for use in mono (nor that there are nine different versions-yikes!). That makes a second Mac an even more attractive option IMO. |
Not offended Wemfan, and I did not suggest anyone else would necessarily be offended. It was simply a suggestion based on my own experience. As I said, this is the kind of thing that is difficult to express. If my suggestion offended you, my apology. |
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Wemfan, the "Manley Reference" line was VTL's "premium" line while the designer David Manley was still owner of the company. When Manley terminated his affiliation with the company, his son Luke Manley took over the co., and EveAnna Manley developed the Manley line as a separate co. I think I got the history right.
I have owned a pair of Manley Reference 200/100 mono's for many years and can tell you that they are great amps; if you like tubes. Powerful (200w in tetrode mode) reliable, dimensional and full-sounding amps with good bass and that natural midrange quality that only a tube amp gives; IMO. Not as squeaky clean sounding as great solid state amps, but...... |
Chris, you're right, I have liked some of the Krells that I have heard very much. I owned the KSA 50 (good but admittedly far from their best) years ago and enjoyed it very much. Still....there's just something about a good tube amp; something that makes music sound closer to real for me. I know all too well that this is a controversial subject, but (just as with the digital/analog debate) there are certain qualities in music that, even as the technologies come closer and closer to each other sound-wise, are still better expressed by one technology (tube/ss) or the other. As we all know no gear is perfect so we have to choose our poison.
BTW, I haven't forgotten about your question re analog /digital in the ET thread. It's going to take some time to get all my thoughts (for whatever they may be worth) down. |
****A low powered tube amp is not the place to look for these speakers so I am considering a much larger power SS amp. Maybe I should be considering tube? I don't know. Anyway, don't be shy. Tell me what you think.****
OK, I won't be shy, and in doing so I obviously show my own biases; so keep that in mind.
I still don't understand why you make the leap to assuming that, while preferring the sound with the Mac, simply because the Mac doesn't have enough power ("not even in the ballpark"), you need to go to a ss amp. I think that the pertinent questions and answers are found in one of your previous comments:
****Frogman, The MAC did sound much better to me. The Parasound is just not as quality of an amp as the MAC. It has nothing to do with SS VS tubes.
I like tube amps but I also like SS in audio. I am just thinking along ss state lines partially because of power ( more headroom, etc.) but maybe I am wrong? When I said I was a tube guy it was in reference to guitar amps which is a whole different world than stereo gear.****
I would not assume that it has nothing to do with SS vs tubes. I think it has everything to do with that. Here's why, and I will try to give you some background for why I am saying that:
I am very familiar with the sound of your Mac amp. I recently almost killed a friend for trading in a pair of them and his C20 tube pre to a local dealer for a Mac ss integrated which we both now agree doesn't sound nearly as good, but is convenient as hell and is "new". I also had this same friend's Levinson 23.5 amp for a few days which I almost bought; but didn't, since the experience served to, once again, show me that it really is an apples/oranges comparison (ss/tube-Levinson/Manley). I have also heard my Manleys in his system replacing the Macs.
I don't know the sound of the Parasound, but I just read several on-line reviews of it (for whatever that is worth) and it appears to be fairly well regarded for its sound; one reviewer compares it to a Krell and a Levinson both in the $10,000 range and claims that the Parasound can hold its own. Now, I have owned enough ss and tube amps over the years to know that this type of review can only tell you so much. However, the conclusion that I can come to with a fair amount of certainty (for me) and based on my experiences is that both your Mac and the Parasound are, in fact, roughly of equal quality compared to the best of each respective technology (tube/ss). So, IMO, it is not true that the "Parasound is just not the same quality as the Mac". I would say that they are and what you are hearing is, in fact, the intrinsic differences between ss and tubes. Differences that will be there even as you move up the quality ladder to more expensive amps. So, since you can get more than enough power with a more powerful tube amp, then why go to ss? IMO, and in spite of all the claims that the two technologies are getting closer and closer sound wise (they are), there are still certain differences in how each technology reproduces music that will be there no matter how much you spend. You have to pick your poison. And, BTW, if you like tube guitar amps because of their sound, there are definitely parallels to the issue of their sound in stereo playback.
Here is what I would do, and I am now going to contradict my earlier comments about the musician thing (and apologies again for that). First, you have to level the playing field. You have two amps of (IMO) roughly equal quality; one ss and one tube. You need to use both with speakers on which the difference in POWER will be fairly insignificant due to the speaker's efficiency: the Klipschorns. Then spend time with each amp on the K's and work on your music and pay attention to not only how long it takes you to learn certain songs or guitar solos; and, just as importantly how much fun you are having doing so. Does one amp seem to facilitate the process? Does one amp let you hear some subtle expressive quality in a guitar player's phrasing that the other amp obscures? Don't rush the process and switch back and forth between the two amps on the K's. I believe that after a short time certain patterns will start to reveal themselves and one amp will reveal itself as superior; and which technology is better FOR YOU. Good luck. |
Wemfan, I think you missed my point. Your Parasound, based on the info I have read, is $3000 and is generally considered a solid performer. If I wasn't clear: my point was simply that if you compare your Mac to what the best tube amps have to offer, you might find that it is probably about as far from that as what your Parasound offers relative to the best solid state amps; so, much of the difference that you are hearing is the intrinsic differences in sound between the two technologies. As someone who considers himself a "tube guy", you may want to focus on what exactly that means to you. More importantly, and especially for someone who admits to "not knowing much" about this stuff, it's important to remember that price is not necessarily the best determinant of ultimate quality. To my way of thinking, if you prefer the sound of tubes, trying a tube amp with adequate power is the next logical step.
Which brings me to the subject of money. You have jumped to considering amps in the $10-12,000 range!! In all lack of shyness, my advise at this point is to take a deep breath and slow things down. Building a truly satisfying system, as has been suggested many times so far, is about balance and synergy (of various sorts). Ultimately, all the well-meaning advise that we can offer you cannot replace the homework that all experienced audiophiles have done by way of trying different gear and forming one's own sense of what "synergy" means in the context of your own sonic priorities. Good luck. |
