Audio Science Review = "The better the measurement, the better the sound" philosophy

There is a lot of misinformation about ASR in this thread and on this forum. For one thing the title of this thread is nonsense. Better measurements = better sound isn't a tenant of ASR. Better measurements = better engineering is and with better measurements you have less chance to alter the source. Better sound is subjective and there are plenty of members on ASR who use tube amps and vinyl because they prefer the sound but what they don't do is claim tubes and vinyl is BETTER. 

I almost never post on ASR but I've read on a lot of different topics. I was amazed how many well know audio luminaries post there. From designers of well known amps, DACs, speakers to researchers in Psychoacoustics, professional audio mixers, studio technicians, firmware and software developers. Yeah it's a science site. 

had to laugh at the irony of the title of this thread. Anyone that spends any time at all at ASR would know that ASR has nothing to say about the "sound" of equipment- they are all about objective performance.

This is true to an extent. If a component like a DAC, amplifier,  cable etc.. excluding speakers has  a " sound" then it's not high fidelity or was purpose built.

I also preferred the Focal Trio11 be to the Dutch and Dutch. They don't measure as well but I like the wider sweet spot and umph of the 10" bass. 

As for the Adalante 5 there's something special about a mid dome driver you don't see those much anymore.  

Truth lives. Long live truth. 

You only get banned from ASR if you constantly troll sonic cable difference without any proof. Every so often one of the cable, DAC, amp trolls show up and are WARNED to either quit polluting treads with subjective opinions  as if it proves anything since it is a science site or get banned. They are informed if they wish to contribute and learn something they are more than welcome.You made your choice.

If cables are used as tone controls it will show up in measurements. Simply saying you can hear differences in cables that measure the same without any reliable controlled tests to support it is only opinion. On this site it's a normal and accepted way of discussing audio. If this subjective opinion was shared on ASR as an opinion it's accepted as well it's only when one consistently claims it as fact after repeatedly being informed it's not science you get banned. It's comparable to flat earthers insisting the Earth's flat on astronomy forums, you're trolling which gets tiresome, no wonder you were banned. 

Don’t I then need to add carefully controlled double blind listening sessions?

That's what I meant by reliable controlled tests. Unless cables, amps, DACs etc.. have vastly different measurements that's the only way to get a realistic view of these components. Sighted listening tests or just proclaiming from above on difference in sound doesn't inform anyone of anything. 

I will add, regarding the subject of cables (and other "accessories") that constantly placing those in the "snake oil" and "ripoffs" section is also a huge disservice to newbies or to those who try to keep the costs manageable.

The opposite is true, it's a huge service to newbies who want to keep costs manageable. 

People can vent all they want. ASR is a good source of realism and someplace like it is a great service. Noone forces anyone to take their advice which is basically here's the measurements decide for yourself. If you prefer a $12000 DAC to a $300 DAC then by all means buy one, if you claim it's "better" on ASR then you need to be able to prove it. It's not hard simply listen to them in a controlled blind test. The disservice this forum has for newbies is the mindset price determines ability which hasn't been true for decades in this niche hobby. If there is one overall piece of advice I would take from ASR is test for yourself, don't assume you're immune from human bias and the biggest factor that determines what you hear is your  speakers/room .

This is a waste of time if you’re going to mischaracterize ASR based on a few posts or threads.

Senior Members of ASR use all types of amplifiers, speakers, digital and yes even vinyl. There are members who have designed tube amps, designed speakers of various types, as well as have extensive knowledge and training in Psychoacoustics among other disciplines. Maybe try to spend some time reading instead of confronting. They may show the best engineering of certain products through testing but they don’t discourage discussion of less than stellar performers. I don’t really understand the hostility.

If you don’t like ASR then ignore them, but they’re not going away.

I sold the Dutch and Dutch, they are exceptional  speakers but I prefer a wider dispersion speaker. I now have Atalante 5 speakers you won't find any measurements I'm aware of they are a relatively new company entirely designed and built in France.  I use a cheap Topping DAC and a class D amplifier. REW for measurements and Roon PEQ filters, very few about 4 I believe. I don't have a dedicated room and minimal treatments. 

Basically, I am curious how you arrived on a purchase decision on the main element of the audio system, speakers.

3" soft dome mid driver and 12" bass and curiosity. I could tell by the design they would have a nice wide dispersion. I had no idea if I would like them but every so often I take a leap of faith. 

My wife is on a few knitting forums, on one of them if you bring up politics you’re banned.

The amplifier most recommended on ASR is not Chinese or class D.

I can now understand the problem most here have with ASR. They aren't interested in your subjective opinion on $10,000 DACs, $50,000 speakers, and $25,000 amplifiers and ban you when you can't substantiate your claims  after repeatedly being asked to. 

If you can prove your golden ears with blind testing then do so otherwise this 

Just don't interect with ASR. They're very rude (unless you agree with them).

Is excellent advice. 

And when I saw him
doing an interference test on a power cord that was not plugged in, I shook my head and have never gone back.

Interference Test of power cable not plugged in. 

We do not have to prove anything.

Here or on most forums this is true, on ASR it's true to the extent you don't keep insisting your subjective experience relates to anything other than your subjective experience without any controlled testing to substantiate it which is what leads to bans as nobody there is interested in anecdotal narratives. 

Most of the discussion on these forums here are subjective. What’s wrong with that?

Nothing, but the thread is a long complaint about ASR bans of people who insist their forum conform to subjective opinions.

you go to a movie, you might tell your friends that was a good movie or a bad movie.

And everyone has an opinion of the movie, that’s what this forum is for, ASR isn’t interested in movie reviews but whether the video and audio equipment was engineered competently to reproduce the movie as intended.

Why does every forum need to be about subjective reviews?

Who claims there’s nothing left to invent? Immersive audio recording and playback is a relatively new invention and I imagine improvements will continue to be invented. DIRAC is getting reading to release a new invention of their room correction. A new type of DAC chip or amplifier could be invented but I don’t see much direction there as those available now are capable of reproducing the medium beyond human audibility, doesn’t mean someone somewhere isn’t working on something new. I believe Atmasphere a contributor here invented a new type of class D amp.

Long term listening is still the gold standard of audio evaluation

I thought our aural memory was very short. 

Amir could have had a killer stereo for $200k. 

True, he could also have one for 1/10 that amount. 

I don't think woodsage read the article. It isn't necessarily bad doctors but systemic problems with care facilities, insurance and non standardization across the health care industry. 

Sound as accurate to the source file I receive as possible. Is that better or worse? No idea. I want the signal that leaves the amp to be as close to the signal that enters the streamer as possible.

That's the ideology and belief system.

As an atheist I don't really agree with this in audio anymore than religion.  My only "belief" is I don't want to alter the signal I'm given, to me measurements will tell me more about whether that is happening than a hearing mechanism cobbled together by evolution. Speakers and room I can adjust to what I like though I have found I prefer a nice flat FR  on and off axis and my personal listening curve applied. Is that "better sound" ??? To subjective to apply to anyone but me. 

OK, I was just trying to explain my take on it. 

The measurement guys are convinced, that better measurements equal better sound

This is wrong, as a measurement guy "better sound "  is subjective and not anything I pay attention to. 

The contention is if you take a " less expensive " component with better measurements can you differentiate it from a more expensive boutique component with worse measurements or an SS one from tube using controlled testing.

 I included it because the argument of "better sound" seems to boil down to how can you say your cheap Class D amp  that measures great "sound better" than my  expensive Class A  that doesn't measure as well? ASR's answer is you have no idea which "sounds better" or can you even make a distinction without controlled testing. It isn't about "sounds great" that's a throw away description. 

The measurement guys are convinced, that better measurements equal better sound.

This is the problem with a lot of posters on this forum as the above is a mischaracterization. Most everything I read on ASR that deals with electronics, leave speakers aside for the moment, is not that better measurements equal better sound but better engineered components with improved noise and distortion measurements. The contention is if you take a " less expensive " component with better measurements can you differentiate it from a more expensive boutique component with worse measurements or an SS one from tube using controlled testing.  Their argument isn't  better measurements give better sound but it's highly unlikely people could tell the difference when bias is accounted for, so for those so inclined save money with electronics and concentrate on speakers and DSP or room treatments to achieve your desired sound signature. 

For speakers,   research has shown most people prefer a flat FR  when measured in an anechoic chamber and wide dispersion. The reasoning I believe is a speaker with a flat FR anechoicly is much easier to get it to work well in a lot of different rooms. Doesn't mean everyone wants that. 

This better measurements = better sound is in this threads title but it certainly isn't the takeaway I've gotten from reading a lot of threads on ASR. 

"What I hear is pointless, just as what you hear is pointless. We hear what we think we hear, what we want to hear, what we need to hear"

The way I read it, I don't see anything objectionable about that statement. You could substitute "hear" with "see" and it still resonates.

What I hear is pointless, just as what you hear is pointless. We hear what we think we hear, what we want to hear, what we need to hear"

IMO The first sentence is about personal experience . " I claim to hear no distortion in my digital setup."   What does anyone gain from that? It's really pointless to anyone but me as your experience is to you. I might be glad you enjoy your setup but your impressions of what you hear doesn't impact anything useful to me as mine doesn't to you.

Second sentence is how our hearing evolved. How our ears and brain work. 

So it's not anything weird or controversial as far as I'm concerned. 

where i disagree is when people insist that i shouldn't trust my senses when i am determining whether a piece of equipment is good for my system. 

I don't think anyone insists you shouldn't trust your senses. I certainly don't.

It is a rebuttal to anyone who says electrical engineers don't see a difference in power cables. 

No, it's another story of hearing differences in power cables without controlled blind listening tests. 

Have fun measuring while I hallucinate and trip on my silver wires ;)

Since when does saying ALL humans have perceptual biases the same as saying someone is hallucinating? The rejection of basic science here is mindboggling.

1) Failure to understand Klippel measurements

Example would be nice.

2) Poor testing methodology - eg the tests conducted on the Chord M Scaler

How so? I’ve read the test.

4) Testing cables for interference when they are not plugged in to anything

Not sure about this, if you're referring to power cable the cable was plugged into the wall receptacle.

7) Conducting speaker listening tests based on 1 speaker only ( I do not care what he says about the validity of this, as this is nonsense)

This is your opinion, which is fine but there is testing which supports using one speaker.

I have seen this stated more than once "Science is observation then measurement". It's not really how it works,  it would be "verifiable observation". Science has no interest in measuring every non verified observation. "I saw a leprechaun hiding gold under a rainbow" isn't a verified observation neither is" I heard differences swapping power cords".  If you heard differences between power cords during a controlled blind test then that's worth investigating. That's a verified observation. 

Now I think I will begin another forum concerning manufacturers supplying measurements and testing.  WHY DON'T THEY?  

Embarrassment?

I was more an objectivist long before ASR existed so it isn’t surprising to say I have learned a lot more from ASR than this one but I never really considered Audigon as a site to learn but a site to buy and sell and shoot the breeze on forums. Some of the discussions here are interesting but some are outright bizarre, for instance, colored fuses, exotic cabling, magic mats in mains panels to name a few. At any rate adios.

Some of you need to climb out of your bubble. It's a whole new world out there. European companies large and small are pushing the envelope especially in speaker design, class D amps, active DSP controlled full systems. 

Propaganda?? 

Going back to the days when NAD's amplifiers were designed by the late Björn Erik Edvardsen, I have always been impressed by the company's conservative and competent engineering. The NAD C 298 continues that tradition but, with its "Eigentakt" class-D output modules, sets a new standard for combining very high power with supremely low distortion.—John Atkinson

The Boxem Arthur 4222 mono amp was tested to 2 Ohm. I'm not sure what tests aren't relevant to audible sound. Distortion and THD+N certainly are as well as FR to power. Perhaps you don't understand what all can be measured and how it relates.

Hey, Amir is back and still trying to prove a negative.

No, he is disproving a positive.

Notice he continues to try to make his point with singular examples.

Every positive claim that "I or a group heard cable difference " not using proper testing methods are also "singular examples".  He is pointing out those positive claims can be disproved with proper testing methods and have been . I have yet to see any proof to support that positive claim of hearing differences other than useless anecdotal stories.

The claim prove a negative is itself a negative claim and a self defeating statement. Imagine someone color blind arguing there is no such thing as a green light on traffic signals when the one they're arguing with rejects evidence and science that proves color blindness exists,  so to them there are no green lights anywhere. 

Here is the thing. A while ago I was looking around for a new DAC. I listened to about 8 and in no case was the cost of the DAC mentioned. I just sat in a chair and listened to the same music. One that I disregarded very quickly was the Topping.

This isn't a blind test. Not knowing prices isn't the same as not knowing which DAC you're listening to. Who controlled the payback? Third party who level marched ? These are some of the  reasons  I suspect your anecdote was dismissed on ASR .