Are first order crossovers best?


Here's an interesting item IMO. In looking for some speaker cables, and possibly interconnects too, I've been hearing from the various manufacturers of these wires a question regarding the crossover in my speakers.

"What order crossover is in them, first, second, third, etc?"

I believe mine (VR4 JR's), are fourth order.

The thought that comes to my mind is this...What does that matter? Should I care what sort of ordered crossover there is in a speaker? How big or small a part does it play?

At this point I have no answers for the above Q's.... if I could have your thoughts and experiences it would be more than appreciated to shed some light on this currently dimly lit subject...

Thanks all...
blindjim

Showing 4 responses by blindjim

Gee. . . thanks. to clear up something before it getts too far afield...

the note regarding speaker cables is ONLY where I derived the info as to what speaker is in use or may be in use... the cable guys expanding on that theme of possible speakers then provided some of their insights on First, Third, fourth order types of speakers. I, as some of you, did and do not see the correlation between cables and the type crossover being used in a given loudspeaker.

As with most of the audio realm, murkiness prevails. I agree that time and phase coherent speakers, although picky to setup IMO, provide a very coherent and larger sound field... or such is my limited experience.

The thrust of the thread was/is to delve into characteristics of given first, third, fourth order crossover designed loudspeakers. Both positive and negative traits. So thus far, I gather the higher the order of crossover, the strickter the field of operation. No wiggle room, or certainly less so, correct?

Also I've gleened no actual determination of a good, better, or best scenario exists soley on the basis of how low or high the order is in application & design. Correct?

My aim was/is to gain some more solid footing in finding which design, creates more fluidity, and natural a presentation, on average, and is not dependant upon a particular sort of amplification.... with the understanding an increase in sensitivity of loudspeaker is accomodating to those amps of lesser power capacity. The key, so far as I am concerned is not the available power, but the way it is handled. though I might be off track with my thinking here, I'm looking to find a design that is accomodating to music, more so than power or the lack of it. Personally, I'm sold on the notion of more power equals more control... and saying that I realize much of the sound is genrrated in the first 50 wpc. A good bit, if not all. It’s impact however, imaging and sense of realism, for me, seems to come a bit further on up… but then, I’m no engineer.

I got the impression from speaking with certain manufacturers a discernable or audible difference is apparent between speakers with different order designs… like a ‘thumbprint’ so to speake. I’m not so sure. B&W’s in general use a higher crossover, Monitor Audio, another English unit, uses no caps whatever for crossovers…VSA, again a higher ordered crosss… and the same with older Phase Technology three ways. I’ve owned several of the B&W two way & three way units. The Gold 60s from Monitor Audio, three way and two way PT’s, and now the 4JR’s. the latter when set right does provide a striking field of sonic involvement. That being said, as with the BW’s, I do notice specific spots where the music seems to end with some abruptness. Not a terrible thing, but one I’d like very much to avoid on the next set of speakers I get. Hence, my curiosity.

I quit reading after the first 60 or so threads, or rather the PC quit reading to me… maybe it’s got a high crossover as well.

Any further thoughts to clear up my ignorance in this regard, or add to another's enlightenment, are greatly appreciated.

I didn't want to bias any opinions, color any insights or cause any undue discourse by throwing in the names of those cable manufacturers that made mention of their applications with different speakers crossovers... though they brought it up, not me. they are prominent and popular wire makers, for sure. I own some of their products myself, and am most pleased with the preformance, which is what ushered me to go back and check them out once more.

Everybody is trying to make the best item they can. Of that I'm positive... some fall short... some don't have resources enough to attain the goal... and with such a plethora of designs and configurations of designs, my attendance to "Simpler is better", in this regard may well not hold true, or be entirely accurate, I suspect. I also clearly see the logic in the "Hear for yourself" notion... and were I able to jump in the car my weekends would be filled with that activity. Trust me, they certainly would. Such is not the case. 'All roads lead to Roma', or so I've heard. fine. I just don't want to take the 'scenic' route... or as little as possible. yes, until the speakers are sitting in the living room, no one really knows.... dealers ain't big on the idea of lending out speakers too much around here... unless you lay out the full bill... and I ain't by nature or economics able to fade that action... especially in the 4K to 8K retail range... so even in face to speaker comparisons, it's doubtful anyone can truly say that'll work fine in my room....without hauling all their gear in to try things out... and even then perhaps. So some research in advance to cull the herd, seems wise enough a notion to me.

Let's say all the drivers are of equal value in a certain enclosure... the heart of the system then would have to be the crossover, I would think. Like the transmission and brakes in a car. Great motors need those two items to get ya where you want to go. the more closely matched and better they perform, those latter devices are meshed, the better the efficiency and hence performance of the overall system. I would think.

Given all the insights, and debate, if nothing is clearly determined, it remains beneficial and noteable in and of itself, to find out that certain crossover designs are better suited (or not), to particular driver configurations, and evne that notion seems without great substance in determineing a choice solely on that one crossover over another, provides more naturalness and fluidity in development of the signal. for audible re-creation. One factor I overlooked in my haste was to add for three, or four way enclosures. As they are the focus for me. I’d really like to have a pair of speakers that do not need subsonic aid… but so far, the few I’ve found to do that deed are either cost prohibitive, or are lacking elsewhere in sonic reproduction… mind you, I don’t need perfect… just balanced would suffice… with any prominence or lean, being set toward the mid and/or lower ranges, though balance is the goal. Which is in keeping with my sonic preferences.

Of all the imformative venues I’ve experienced, this one remains an insightful, and dependable one as I’ve encountered on my little audio-addict sojourn. And why I prevail upon the experiences of those with far more than I.

thanks immensely.
Apparently, this thread has become but a public forum for a couple folks to correspond... ever hear of email? Your dialouge seems to have gotten off topic some.... with point & counter point rehetoric about personal perspectives... though input is more than appreciated, getting back to the gist of the thread might well serve others, right? ...and not be "Who's right & why" sort of thing. OK?
Matrix

havbing found out that with most everything audio, there is a sonic signature of some sort, I felt to inquire as to crossovers. I figured simply to find out about a subject I know little of and hopefully determine some basic traits of the different type networks.

Example... most people will say a certain preamp is 'warm', and another is 'dynamic'. One amp is better suited for this, and another for that... The aim was to decrease the huge number of available speakers out there in terms of possible compatibility or incompatibility, with present and/or future gear.

Like I was sort of expecting to hear something like:

Well, with first order networks I've found they work best with SET amps. or Fourth order does best with Solid state. I've since began to think along the lines of "What did the speaker maker use to voice them with in terms of amplification?" instead of focusing on what sort of crossover is in them... I apologize if it made no sense to anyone else... it did to me... at the time.

I believe I've had mostly 'fourth' order in my previous speakers (B&W), and The Monitor Audio people say they use no caps in their Gold 60's, of which I also had a set... my PC 10.5 Phase Techs I'm not sure about what is in there... 3rd, I think. The Jr's use a 4th. All of these have been paired with 120 wpc to 250 wpc solid state amps of various brands. Never tube amps. My level of experience and/or my ignorance as to system synergy and it's importance along with some poorly put 'professional advice' cost me severely with some past efforts to put together a decent system. I'd as soon forgoe that experince again, if at all possible.... I sought to do that by asking what I believed a simple question. That's all.

I'm likely to stay with solid state amps and tubed preamps. . . and plan to move into either the BAT 600 or CJ P350 later on, with either a BAT, Thor, or CJ preamp. I also will probably get into a pair of speakers other than the VR4 JR's I have now. Something from perhaps VA. Strauss? Being goal oriented, and with fixed disposable income having some idea in place beforehand is comforting to me. hence the question (s).... I've not the resources to simply buy this or that to find out. truth be toled, that process is weairsome and tedious. Let alone expensive. Again, I apologize to misspeake or mislead, or be too grey with the inquirey.