Advice on choosing speakers

Hi Matt:

I can propose two speakers at different price points, both of which I own (I know them well):

(1) Vienna Acoustics Mahlers ($4-$5k used; $9,800 new):

The Mahlers have a lot of finesse for the price. They are very transparent and image extremely well. They can handle a lot of power and go extremely loud cleanly, with the most powerful midbass I have heard short of big Wilsons. They are voiced to be a bit warm sounding, which bothers purists, but in my system, it really works. While they are efficient at 90 db./watt, each speaker has two 7' mid/woofers and two 10" woofers per speaker and they produce a lot of mid-bass energy, thus requiring high-quality, powerful amplification and a judicious choice of speaker cables to control the woofers. The woodworking on Vienna Acoustics speakers is about as good as it gets in hi-fi and they tend to get high marks for aesthetics.

Here is the webpage for the speaker and webpage to three reviews (I find the Audio Magazine and Stereophile reviews to be accurate and informative):

http://www.sumikoaudio.net/va/prod_mahler.htm

http://www.sumikoaudio.net/va/idx_awards.htm

(2) Revel Salons ($9k-$11k used; $19k new):

The Salons use 4th order crossovers and go even louder than the Mahlers (that means incredibly loud). They convey a lot of detail and are very accurate, having little coloration -- they sound like what they are fed. Their bass performance is accurate and not exaggerated. At +/- 86 db/watt efficiency and dropping to 3 ohms in the bass, they require powerful amplification that is stable into low impedences. More so than the Mahlers, they really need power to open up. They are otherwise very transparent and open sounding, but having 4th order crossovers, do not image as well as the Mahlers. The styling is somewhat unconventional, but is very much liked by many. Here is the webpage and the two best known reviews:

http://www.revelspeakers.com/products/overview.asp?ID=1

http://www.stereophile.com/loudspeakerreviews/96/

http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/tas131_revel.html

Both of these speakers do rock incredibly well and have finesse. Both are also lovely with simpler music, as they are very transparent and natural sounding. I would say that both are all-around performers. While the Revel has more potential and is the better product, I actually prefer the Mahlers in my systems for rock. All of those drivers move a ton of air and create a slightly fat midbass -- incredibly fun for rock. Speakers like Kharmas, Avalons and Veritys are more coherent and more transparent, but they offer no speaker anywhere near these price points that can really do rock.

Assuming that they are set up right, fully broken in, and used with the right ancillary equipment, either of these speakers would be extremely competitive with the B&W's you are considering and any other speaker at their respective price points, especially when it comes to rock. They are both also still in production and have respectable resale value. As for the quality of the companies behind these speakers, Revels are made in Orange County and are part of Harmon International, a publically listed company that also owns JBL, Infinity and Mark Levinson, and is known to stand behind its products. Vienna is an Austrian company that seems to be quite successful and well run, and its U.S. distributor, Sumiko, is one of the strongest hi-fi distributors in the U.S.

Good luck.

Donbellphd: what are you missing?

Well, first, the budget proposed by the author of the thread ("I do not have a specific budget, but let's say less than 10K used"). I proposed a $5k and a $10k alternative.

Second, rock music is quite hard to reproduce convincingly because it is supposed to be played back at high volume -- most speakers compress when asked to reproduce big orchestral crescendos or rock and roll at live levels. There are very few speakers at any price that can get you near the decibel levels encountered with a live rock performance in a club or other public venue. It so happens that the Mahlers and Salons are such speakers (and they have finesse, which the author of the thread also wrote was important to him, and which he won't get in a speaker that also has great dynamics without spending some money).

Finally, you are confusing distortion in the performance and distortion produced by speakers that lack dynamic headroom and are pushed too hard. The former is part of a rock performance and is captured on the recording, generally resulting from the use of tube guitar amps (and in the early days of rock, primitive recording equipment that compressed when faced with the sound pressure levels of rock -- this is audible on, for example, a lot of blues recordings (Elmore James) and some of the early Stones albums), and requires a top-quality speaker to reproduce accurately. As for the latter, it is just a speaker lacking dynamic headroom or lacking proper amplification that is being overdriven, which screws up any kind of music, including rock.

In short, it is difficult (I would even say extremely difficult) to find a speaker in his price range that can really do rock and that has finesse (and that are aesthetically pleasing and built by companies that back their products, which were the other features he seeks).