Belyin: the thing is, this mono Audio Technica cartridge provides so much for so little, at least from Amazon. It lists at around $300, but you can get it from Amazon for $112.65. A replacement stylus for a mono Grado ME+ is $90; you might as well buy three Audio Technicas and set yourself up for a decade of playing mono LPs.
The other cartridges you mention cost more in one way or another. The Denon is twice as much. It has OFC copper, but the AT has PCOCC copper, a big step up in the most strategic place. The Ortofon SPU Mono is no doubt a great mono cart, but at around 8-1/2 times the price it should be.
That's why I'm nuts about the Audio Technica. It is a great value, almost a gift--a cannily built high output moving coil with a forgiving conical stylus and an overall enticing musical presentation for little more than a Shure M97xE.
I'm sure there are better mono carts, but none that can get within sniffing distance of the AT at $112.65. |
You could also have a stylus that can wiggle in both directions to protect stereo records but only has a coil and magnet to pick up horizontal motion. In that case the signal's not canceled; there's no signal from vertical motion at all. It could also mean less moving mass.
It *is* different from using a mono switch, because that's summing both channels to produce mono. A cartridge that picks up only the horizontal movement--regardless of how it does that--is factoring out the second version of the mono signal and eliminating noise that would be generated by the vertical track.
There is no question from my listening that the AT MONO3/LP has a lower noise floor and a more focused sound because it's only playing a single mono track rather than the sum of two. |
When I first got a Japanese stereo pressing of Rubber Soul, I *wished* I had
a mono switch. It was never intended to be a stereo record, but in the US,
Capitol knew that *stereo* sold. So they keept the 2 recording tracks
separate, instruments in one, voices in the other. Much worse than John and
Paul hard right, George and Ringo hard left.
However, Lewm, a mono switch doesn't replicate *all* the advantages that a
mono cartridge does. Because there's no vertical signal in a mono cartridge
(at least the ones I know of such as my new Audio Technica and the Grados),
the noise floor is cut in half, even for modern mono reissues.
I've found that vintage mono records benefit even more from a mono
cartridge. I recently pulled out some real '50s and '60s mono pressings--Ella
Fitzgerald singing Gershwin, Righteous Brothers, and Fischer-Dieskau
singing Brahms. With a stereo cartridge they were too noisy, the Fischer-
Diskau especially so. With the mono cartridge all those same records were
quiet and very enjoyable.
A mono switch with a stereo cartridge won't fix that. |
11-02-15: Lewm
To repeat, many if not most modern mono cartridges are internally
constructed as stereo cartridges, except that the outputs of the two
channels are summed prior to exit. Such cartridges will likely be responding
to vertical modulation imparted by the record grooves.
Do you know this for a fact, or are you guessing? Many mono carts are NOT just summed channel stereo carts. My mono cartridge makes NO vertical sound. NADA. It is dead quiet on a needle drop where I can get a pretty loud THUMP with a stereo cartridge. If it were summing two channels it would still make a big sound on a needle drop. The mono output goes out to both speakers because its single signal, picked up by a single coil and magnet, is split to go to both channels. In fact, there's another advantage to a real mono cartridge--lower moving mass. I think that's how this Audio Technica can put out 1.2mV and yet be more detailed and sensitive than my Denon DL-160, a stereo HOMC. What I've said about this Audio Technica cartridge is also true of the low cost mono Grados--$90 for the conical model, $150 for the elliptical. The suspension allows horizontal and vertical movement, but that is simply for record safety. There are no mangets or coils to pick up the vertical movement and then killed downstream. It is a mono cartridge with an internal splitter to send the signal to both channels. That is why it's devoid of phasing issues and the noise level is cut at least in half. And also why a mono switch on a preamp won't do the same thing. |
Hey Lewm, I found some threads that may address the mono switch feature you were talking about. Here's something to consider, however. Some mono switches may occurr at the phono stage; others may be implemented at the line stage. They would behave differently. Here's a thread about preamps with mono switches in general. And here's a thread about a specific circuit design at the phono stage that does the things you were talking about such as noise cancellation. However, note that these are not features you can just go out and buy. The first thread mainly addresses vintage classic items (such as an Audio Research unit) that would cost a lot on the vintage market. The second thread addresses a design that probably has to be custom-ordered and handbuilt. Then there's the third alternative, particularly the cartridge that started this thread. The Audio Technica unit is a high output (1.2mV) moving coil cartridge, true mono with a -30dB rejection in the vertical plane, and it's readily available for anything from $112.65 to $299.99, depending on the vendor you choose. Furthermore, if your System profile is up-to-date, I see you have a Kenwood LM07 turntable, which has a universal headshell. You could get the Audio Technica AT33MONO/LP and a headshell, mount and align it, and just play the mono records in native mode. It's much easier than hunting down a phono head with mono switch, and the results would be at least as good. I'm really happy with that cartridge and it has increased my enjoyment both of latter day mono reissues (Beatles, Beach Boys, Nat King Cole, Gene Krupa) and digging out 45-60-yr-old mono original pressings. Highly recommended. |
11-09-15: Lewm
Johnny, What is a "phono head with a mono switch"?
I just meant a mono switch at the phono stage instead of the line stage. Beyond that I don't know and don't care. To me the mono switch is a footnote in the history of high fidelity. Handy if you need one, just another switch if you don't. If you gotta have a mono switch, you're looking at shopping for 40-50 yr-old preamps, getting a custom unit or going DIY. Since I have a TT with interchangeable headshells (as do you), I'm happy to swap carts in about a minute. The ATMONO33/LP (you know, the topic of this thread?) starts off with PCOCC copper wiring, extracts a pure mono signal at the source, suppresses the vertical plane a minimum 30dB, and just sounds quiet, smooth, luscious, and right. This cartridge makes my latter day mono reissues sound cleaner and more dynamic. My '50s and '60s thrift shop mono albums have gone from unlistenably noisy to very enjoyable. For anyone with some mono albums who has an interchangeble headshell, second tonearm, or rack space for a mono turntable, I highly recommend going the mono cartridge route. For $112.65 you can get a $300 list (built and sounds like it) HO moving coil true mono cart that'll light up anyone's mono collection I'm done talking about mono switches. |
11-09-15: Lewm
Johnny, What is a "phono head with a mono switch"?
I just meant a mono switch at the phono stage instead of the line stage. Beyond that I don't know and don't care. The mono switch is a footnote in the history of high fidelity. Handy if you need one, just another switch if you don't. These days if you want a mono switch, you have to shop for 40-50 yr-old preamps or integrated amps, order a custom unit or DIY. Since I have a TT with interchangeable headshells (as do you), I'm happy to swap carts in about a minute. The ATMONO33/LP (you know, the topic of this thread?) starts off right with PCOCC copper wiring, extracts a pure mono signal at the source, suppresses the vertical plane a minimum 30dB, and just sounds quiet, smooth, luscious, and right. This cartridge makes my latter day mono reissues sound cleaner and more dynamic. My '50s and '60s thrift shop mono albums have gone from unlistenably noisy to very enjoyable. For anyone with some mono albums who has an interchangeble headshell, second tonearm, or rack space for a mono turntable, I highly recommend going the mono cartridge route. For $112.65 you can get a $300 list (built and sounds like it) HO moving coil true mono cart that'll light up anyone's mono collection I'm done talking about mono switches. |
11-13-15: Lewm
And Haha, here is a quote from Ortofon on their "Quintet Mono" cartridge. Caveat emptor:
"Quintet Mono uses a strapped output to deliver the same output signal from both sets of pole pins."
Thus, even for a given manufacturer, one must read the fine print to find out what they're really selling
And what does "strapped" mean to you in this context? |
11-13-15: Lewm
And Haha, here is a quote from Ortofon on their "Quintet Mono" cartridge. Caveat emptor:
"Quintet Mono uses a strapped output to deliver the same output signal from both sets of pole pins."
Thus, even for a given manufacturer, one must read the fine print to find out what they're really selling.
I don't think Ortofon means "strapped" the way you do. They mean they have a true mono design inside a stereo-looking cartridge. Internally the stylus/cantilever/ coil/magnet assembly tracks the groove only in the horizontal plane and produces a mono signal from it. Then that SINGLE signal is strapped (e.g., like a Y-adapter) to both the L and R pole pins on the back of the cartridge so it sends an identical in-phase single-source mono signal to both channels through the stereo system to both speakers. It's not a stereo pickup sending a summed signal to both sides of the pins. The rest of the product description that you don't quote makes that pretty clear. And really, considering the market would be made primarily of stereo users, isn't that exactly what users would want? It makes the cartrtidge very usable both for modern mono reissues and old vintage ones. |
10-29-15: Oregonpapa
I wish I had the ability to have two tonearms on the table. With all of the
mono jazz recordings I have, I'd love to have that new AT mono cartridge.
Do you have room for a second turntable? For the price of a tonearm, you could get a Pioneer PLX-1000, which is like a Technics SL1200 with the improvements it always needed--better feet, internally damped tonearm, more torque, and constrained layer damping where the plinth meets the base. They go for $697 and have a removeable headshell. I totally agree with you about Audio Technica cartridges. My stereo cart is the AT150MLX. It's a fantastic value with excellent resolution, tonal balance, detail, and dynamics, especially considering you can get it for $325 and the MicroLine stylus is replaceable. This AT MONO3/LP HOMC is also schweet, lowering the noise floor and brnging a nice musicality to all my mono records I like it much better than the Denon DL-160 HOMC I still have. I wish Audio Technica made a stereo version (i.e., high output) of this cartridge as well. At $112.65 it's ridiculously good. |
Lewm, I think I can shed some light on your questions.
No, my preamp does not have a mono switch.
Until last Tuesday, I've played my 30 or so mono LPs with a stereo cartridge,
the Audio Technica AT150MLX.
I only started playing these mono albums with this new AT mono cart for the
past six days. I have been giving heavy rotation to the Beatles and Nat King
Cole mono reissues plus vintage pressings.
Your "In theory, a stereo cartridge played through mono switching ought to
be about the same as a mono cartridge, on mono LPs" overlooks a couple of
things. Original mono pressings only have modulations in the horizontal
plane. Modern mono pressings are pressed like stereo pressings--horizontal
modulations for one channel, vertical modulations for the other channel.
When both channels have the same info and are played back on a stereo
cartridge, yes, you do get mono. However, the two channels will be slightly
out of sync unless the cartridge is *perfectly* aligned.
A mono cartridge can *track* in both planes, but only the horizontal
modulations are transmitted. This means there are no right/left phasing
issues and the noise floor is lower becausethe noise and accumulated dust
of the vertical channel transmits no sound.
Also, modern mono cartridges have a suspension that allows the cantilever
to move horizontally and vertically, probably so you don't inadvertently ruin a
stereo record. However, the vertical circuit is "dead." The needle moves
that way but makes no sound.
Another advantage with the AT MONO is that the stylus is conical (not so on
many mono cartridges), so overhang isn't so picky and tangential alignment
isn't so critical. With a stereo cartridge with a microline, Shibata, Fritz-Gyger,
etc. stylus the opposite is true--for best mono playback alignment needs to
be as close to perfect as possible. In fact, playing a stereo cartridge on a
modern mono record is a good tool for spotting alignment problems--and
also for subwoofer integration. I once played a mono Miles Davis reissue and
iit sounded like the music was coming from the left wall. I had to adjust the
azimuth to fix it.
The mono cartridge sound is very focused and free of any phasey artifacts
because it's playing only one track rather than merging two identical tracks
that are supposed to sound identical. With a mono cartridge, because only
one track is getting picked up, music from both speakers *is* identical.
For me, at $112.65 and a turntable with interchangeable headshells--even
for playing just 30 records or so--this was a no-brainer. |
11-05-15: Fleib
Elimination of vertical noise is a great advantage with a mono cart as
Johnnyb says. This can be dramatic with some older or beat up records.
That's what I've been exploring with the AT33MONO cartridge the last few days. I've been digging out various mono records I had tried years ago and set aside as they were too noisy when tracked by my stereo cartridge and signal chain. Now I'm trying them again and they sound great. Examples include an original 1965 pressing of the Janos Starker Bach Cello Suites on Mercury Living Presence, an Angel mono of baritone Dietrich Fischer-Diskau singing Brams songs, an old Verve record called Giants3 featuring Nat King Cole on piano (no voice), Lester Young on tenor sax and Buddy Rich on drums, a 1969 Fantasy mono of the Vince Guaraldi Trio doing the music to A Boy Named Charlie Brown, an old Columbia mono LP of Gene Krupa orchestra with Anita O'Day and Roy Eldridge, and some others. In each case, when played with a stereo cartridge there was so much surface noise I couldn't enjoy the music. When played with the AT33MONO the noise was gone (or 30dB down if you wish). So far this cart has made around 20 old mono pressings totally playable and enjoyable. For awhile the tonal balance sounded a bit dark and closed in, but I raised the arm height a bit to make the headshell level with the record and that fixed it. Now playing a mono pressing of "Echoes of a 16th Century Cathedral" by the Roger Wagner Chorale. Released July 1967. A Capella renaissance choral music and a lovely way to start a Saturday morning. Lots of great music for fifty cents. The AT mono cartridge has brought so many vintage mono LPs to life it's paid for itself. |
Lewm, the full paragraph on the Ortofon website that you excerpted says:
Quintet Mono uses a strapped output to deliver the same output signal from both sets of pole pins. This effectively eliminates the need for mono-specific equipment, making it possible to enjoy true mono reproduction on any stereo playback system.
In that context it looks pretty clear that the cartridge is only reading the horizontal cut and then strapping it to both outputs so it'll play nicely centered mono on a stereo pair of speakers. Secondly, in June 2014, Michael Fremer published an online article about the Ortofon 2M Mono SE that was being developed to honor EMI's new Beatles Mono LP collection coming out later that year. In the comments section, a reader asked just how "mono" this and other Ortofon mono cartridges are. Fremer said he'd ask Ortofon about it. True to his word, further down in the comments he replies:
Here is what designer Leif Johannsen writes about the Ortofon lineup: SPU CG: The old 1948-design with only lateral compliance and one coil SPU Mono, Cadenza Mono, Quintet Mono: Both lateral and vertical compliance and one coil. The armature has been turned 45 degrees from the stereo-position. 2M Mono and 2M Mono SE: In the MM we cannot turn the armature or anything else. So the mechanical geometry is the same as in the stereo 2M’s. But we can couple the two coils in a clever way (NOT simply parallel between L and R)) and thereby making it work as one coil. The point is to have a design not sensitive to vertical movements and that has been achieved.
Also, note that the Dudley column you referenced was written more than ten years ago. There is a lot more mono activity going on now than there was then. We now have mono reissues of the Beach Boys, Beatles, Prestige and Riverside jazz labels, etc. The market has expanded and so hast the number of mono cartridge models and mfrs, which makes the task of sorting out their topologies more challenging. And if you look at the Dudley article, he notes that the Grado wood cartridge is potted, and therefore difficult to determine the inner workings. He suspected that Grado's suppression of vertical signal wasn't as strong as that of the other two cartridges. But when he played it, it was as noise-free as the others. Circuit and mechanical design is a means to an end. What's important is the end result. How things are strapped isn't as important as how it tracks and sounds. |
I've been looking through my original and subsequent posts, and realize I have conflated two different Audio Technica moving coil mono cartridges: The ATMONO3/LP, which has 1.2mV output and is the one that I have, and the AT33MONO, which is 0.3mV output. The ATMONO3/LP has an official US distributor, LpGear.com, who prices it at $189. You can also get it for as low as $112.65 on Amazon (which is what I did). The AT33MONO is not officially imported, so you can get it from eBay or Amazon. It's usually in the $270-340 range.
Both have the same weight and both feature an aluminum cantilever and spherical (conical?) stylus.
My stereo cartridge is an AT150MLX, which is quite an overachiever for an MM cartridge. As good as the AT150MLX is, the ATMONO3/LP holds up well when I switch to it, and it really brings the advantages of a mono cartridge--a great sense of immediacy, much lower noise floor (esp. on old mono) and a really coherent sound that smacks you in the middle of the head. It sounded so good on the new Beatles Mono LP releases that it sent me searching for other mono albums I have, some 50 and more years old. It turns out I have 57 and counting.
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... or even a $112.65-189 experiment for the ATMONO3/LP.
That’s a small price for proof of concept. You could always take your time to research and pick the ultimate mono cart. In the meantime, that ATMONO3/LP takes care of all the stereo vs. mono cartridge issues and then some for a pittance. It sounds really good and brings out the advantages of mono.
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Here's a really enlightening rundown on stylus shapes' advantages and disadvantages from someone who should know, Soundsmith: http://www.sound-smith.com/articles/stylus-shape-informationConical doesn't get too much love there, but my ATMONO3/LP is nice, especially since I only have about 62 (and counting) mono LPs out of around 1500. However, the Ortofon 2M Mono SE (available only direct from their website) has a Shibata stylus and is more or less within the budget range (499 Euro). |
Did I say 62? Tonight I discovered that I have an original Ray Charles "Modern Sounds in Country & Western, vol. II" in mono. It was too noisy to play in stereo. Sounds much better with my mono cartridge, with a few rough edges. |
Lewm:
...For my upstairs system, which has no stereo/mono switch, I require a low output Mono cartridge. ... Does anyone own one of the "high end" mono cartridges, like the Helikon Mono or the Miyajima Zero? The latter is calling out to me right now; it’s saying "buy me". But I’d rather spend $500-ish than the $2000 cost of the Zero. The ATMONO3/LP that I got is an HOMC with output of 1.2mV, but the AT-33 MONO is a mono version of their AT-33 series. It’s an LOMC with 0.35 mV output. Since this model is not officially imported to the US and you want to avoid Amazon, you could pick one up from any number of international vendors on eBay for BIN prices that range from $309 to $475. http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2050601.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.Xaudio+technica...You can also custom order any cartridge from Grado in mono. They have a series of wood-bodied low output moving iron cartridges (Statement series), one of which (the Sonata v2) is $600. The Ortofon 2M Mono SE is available directly from Ortofon for $499 Euro. It has a Shibata stylus, but is a high output MM. |
Fleib, I've found that--with the ATMONO/3/LP HOMC--the resolution can vary with the quality of the mono mix. My stereo cart is an AT150MLX--boron cantilever, microline nude stylus. I have both a stereo and a mono copy of "Al Hirt's Greatest Hits," an RCA 1965 recording. The stereo version is in excellent shape; the mono was still sealed and set me back a whopping 25 cents.
Anyway, when I played both records with my stereo cart, the stereo version sounded decidedly better. The mono pressing sounded murkier and the vocal backing was harder to hear.
However, when I swapped to the ATMono3/LP, the mono pressing sounded as if someone flipped a resolution switch. The mix was deep, spacious, and very well separated. As good as the background vocals sounded on the stereo one, the mono cart playing the mono pressing was even better with more inner detail and a bit more overall cohesiveness.
On vintage mono from 1969 backward, I consistently get an inaudible noise floor and a very satisfactory music experience. Come to think of it, I also get that with the modern pressings--Beach Boys from Capitol, the new Beatles MONO release, and an Analogue Productions' 45 rpm pressing of a 1957 Nat Cole album. |
Fleib: Well there's a thought. The ATMono3/LP can be so inexpensive ($112.65) that it might be worth retipping with a microline right away. Like AT's upscale cartridge it's internally wired with PCOCC. I am a big fan of MicroLine. Not only does it sound good, it tracks like a mofo, is easy on the records, and can be good for up to 4,000 hours (according to what I heard from an analog specialty store).
The 0.7 conical stylus of the AT-33MONO and ATMONO3/LP may have its advantages, however. I think that profile may be why that mono cart does so well both on true vintage mono pressings and present-day reissues. A MicroLine might do better on moderns, worse on vintage. |
Well Stringreen, you have evidently been lucky in your acquisition of mono LPs. I have several that I've rescued from thrift shops for 99 cents or less. Many of them proved to be unlistenable with my stereo setup. but revealed themselves as powerful presentations when played with my AT3MONO/LP cartridge. With your strong classical background you may be able to appreciate recordings I have of Fischer-Dieskau doing Schubert songs, Roger Wagner Chorale doing Echoes of a 16th Century Cathedral. Horowitz doing Brahms Sonatas and other recordings. Using the AT Mono cartridge makes these 50+ yr-old recordings smack me in the middle of my head with transparency, midrange impact, and a general sense of "in-the-room" presence.
If you expand your experience with mono recordings from various sources, you'll see what I'm talking about. If you don't, then party on and enjoy what you have. |
