Sorry @ozzy wasn’t trying to denigrate the old grounding blocks just that I was looking for something with a connection to the wall like the Telos so when the new SR came along it seemed just the ticket
Regarding cables do you find that they are very sensitive to how they are dressed? That’s always been my experience with the grounds for my FEQs and now with the new leads. They have to be off the floor, no loops, away from active power cords etc
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@atmasphere if that was the case then why would grounding the stands after everything else had already been grounded to the SR box make an improvement? And why would changing the cables used for the grounds make an improvement? I use equipment from a wide range of manufacturers so can't believe they all got it wrong out of the gate... I think there's more going on here than your hypothesis
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Sorry Ralph -- you're dodging my question. If I accept your argument then installing the grounding box fixes all of the issues that the designers of the original equipment caused by (as you hypothesize) grounding the chassis of some but of kit somewhere along the line Ok with this fixed why the hell should it then matter that I ground a passive piece of metal and carbon fibre (the stand) -- or is it equally valid that these huge bits of conductive material are picking up god knows what nasties and the ground path is a way of getting this crap out of the system? And btw SR acknowledge your main point in their description anyways, to quote The high-speed, SR Active Ground Block provides a conductive path for this ground, separate from the normal current-carrying path of your components, which under certain conditions can add up to 10 dB of noise if poorly designed My point is that even a well designed grounding system can be contaminated (why else do we put filters on our grounds entering the house as well?) and providing a fast path to remove this contamination is and likely will be in most systems, a good thing |
Thanks thanks very much @davehrab and @atmasphere these explanations really make sense and are very helpful
one final question/observation is regarding turntables. Most turntables and phono amps have a chassis ground that in many systems will be connected (it is in mine as in the case of one of my two cartridges it sounds better that way). Does the existence of this ground path mess up all other grounds that may have been well designed? Or should phono stage designers have a different grounding arrangement (for my AR Ref Phono 2 it's a simple chassis tag, and on my table the ground on my wooden arm is to a tag on the turntable itself)
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Not an add for Synergistic but a recommendation to try someone's (anyone, including home made if you want) grounding system if you think you have any of the problems Almarg and Atmasphere describe |
@nonoise I agree, it’s always seemed odd that the boxes like Entreqs could really act as a ground while separate from the electrical ground.
my problem with what Gutwire propose is that you need a hell of a lot of cables if you have a complex system like mine, and more to the point a lot of available outlets sharing a common ground.
I have prior experience grounding my FEQs to a different outlet to the one they are powered from and that didn’t sound at all good ... it is interesting that Gutwire actually specify that the ground for their cords should NOT be shared with the rest of the electronics ... oh well, lots of room for different approaches I guess |
@lowrider57 i cannot comment on the ground zero as I believe it performs a different function
fact is the SR system has no effect on hum or background noise in my system. If anything it creates some new potential hum sources with all the additional cables that need to be dressed. If your ground problems manifest as hum or audible noise then you need different solutions such as cheating or the zero
what the SR box (and from reviews other like devices) do is change the sound of the system without affecting the classic "ground issues"
i should also observe at this point that not every component responds well to grounding to the SR box in my system. In the case of my phono stage connecting it to the SR ground box flattened the dynamics and dulled the sound ... so be prepared to experiment |
Hi @68pete some thoughts based on your setup
one please make sure you are using the system as SR specify I.e, you should connect to an open/unused active outlet (RCA or XLR) and not to the provided grounding posts (other than in phono setups). Sounds like you are facile with a soldering iron so can connect some RCA jacks to the wires SR provide if needed. I’ve no idea why your amp manufacturer warned against doing this (likely they thought you meant using the RCA as a safety ground) - give it a try, worst it will do is nothing
secondly you must connect the ground from the block to the same spur (i.e. Pair of outlets) that is powering all the rest of your equipment. If you connect to a different spur it will sound thin and lifeless as you describe - my suspicion is that this is the root cause of your poor experience. Most setups have a power conditioner on one outlet to which all the equipment is connected and the ground takes the second outlet
finally the stock SR cables are absurdly sensitive to dressing. The need to be well off the floor, in loose loops (never kinked or coiled) - try lifting them up in your hands and you should hear the sound open. The HD cords are much less sensitive in this regard
if none of this helps given you have a straightforward system them the Gutwire type approach may be a better fit for you
good luck! |
Ok on the dedicated grounds then on the Esoteric stuff. Do you have a duplex outlet connected to your 15 A line? The hemisphere should go in one of the two outlets, the ground in the other. The ground should not be connected to the hemisphere. Any other configuration just will not work and you would be better off sending the grounding block back for a refund
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@glory thanks for the kind words, I do like to try and get down in words the subtleties of what these small changes can deliver
Anyway in the spirit of further getting the most out of the SR grounding solution I have found some small incremental benefit from getting the footers right under the grounding boxes. My rule would be firstly get it on some sort of spring or ball based islolation, I have one on the floor on the voodoo ISO pod ball footers. My other is on a GPA amp stand which itself is on ball based Apex footers, this one sounds best coupled to the stand via rigid Marigo type footers, having two ball footers in sequence seems to lead to them fighting one another and a blurring of the sound |
@dlcockrum following up on your questions. I would certainly not recommend a long run to a grounding block if it can be avoided. If you do have to then you could consider having Mike Powell at Verastarr make you something up - there's a discussion of my experience with his work here https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/verastarr-s-mike-powell-upgrading-sr-stuff/post?postid=145531...I cannot really pass any opinion on where you may find the most impact, it's highly system dependent. I found some of the greatest changes came from grounding the stands (?!) under my power amps and that grounding anything to do with the turntable made things worse, so care and experimentation are needed Regarding the tranquility bases I tried one in my system under my PowerCell 12 UEF and it sounded terrible - upgrading the GPA amp stand under the PowerCell to Apex footers and subsequently adding Marigo RHZ feet under the PowerCell was much better. Personally I've never found any of the SR platforms or footers effective and felt that they all impart an edgy and metallic tinge to my system. As always your experience may differ but do make sure you can try it and return it if needed |
@mtseymour im afraid I did not upgrade from the original grounding block to the active, I just started with the active so cannot comment on the benefit. With the normal 30 day trial I’d give it a go. I did find that getting the grounding block up on roller ball based supports helped. I also have had good results from grounding cables that Mike at Verastarr made for me that are much cheaper than the SR ones but give great results |
@mtseymour all of my connections, with the exception of the bare silver connections to my stands, are SR HD links. For the Atmosphere and my two FEQs SR make a cable terminated with the larger bananas. I also needed longer runs to the FEQs for which SR sell extender cables terminated in female small bananas. Did grounding the Atmosphere and FEQs make a difference? Yes but one of the smaller ones, certainly less than getting the grounding right on the FEQs without the ground block ( ie plugging them both into the same dedicated outlets)
I do not have any Atmosphere interconnects so cannot speak to what results you might get with them. all my interconnects are AQ WEL Signature |
@jea48 i suspect you may be misunderstand how these systems work. They have no effect on nor relation to the safety ground. As @ozzy has observed even passive ground solutions give results, consider for example the Entreq units which have no connection to the AC safety ground at all but still produce the same type of results. The active circuitry in the SR block I have adds to the effect but you can get the main part of it by using a passive device. These devices will not address humm or other AC ground issues and have a completely separate use. |
The active ground block has active components inside as well as a ground connection.
By the way the general rule with active SR components is to never disconnect them if at all possible. Once disconnected and reconnected the fields in the cables to which they are connected take 48-72 hours to fully reform. The same is true for AQ DBS as well. So be very careful if you are making these quick comparisons.
Disconnecting a ground lead at the component end is much less deleterious and a better way of doing a quick check on the impact of this tweak |
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Quick update on this thread to present a solution to ground for the front end of your phono system. As noted in prior comments on this thread grounding the first stage in your phono chain (be it the arm, table, step up or phono stage if no step up used) to the SR Block made the sound worse -- more congested and constrained. Convinced that their might still be benefit in giving the cartridge, tonearms and deck its own dedicated ground I was intrigued to see the Akiko "Phono Booster" -- which is in effect a miniature grounding block dedicated for phono stages https://www.akikoaudio.com/en/akiko-audio/akiko-audio-audio-accessories/549-akiko-audio-phono-booste...I took a chance on this (21 day money back from Jaguar Audio) and have been very pleased with the results. I have it connected to my step up (the phono stage itself is now grounded to the SR Block) and the effect is very worthwhile. Most noticeable is increased separation between instruments -- in loud orchestral passages each instrument has its own bubble of air around it and you can keep track of more as the volume and complexity increases. The down side in this is that it can at first listen seem a bit thinned out and bass shy but I believe this is in fact the removal of a coloration. The effect is very LP dependent and in every case with the Akiko in I can hear more information -- but in some cases the prior coloration was definitely euphonic. One nit I have is that the wire is rather stiff and flops under its own weight (which is an issue as grounding cables need to be carefully dressed and kept away from other cables) and that the spade is a small one -- my step up ground lug is the larger size, but I was able to show it in. I think I'll explore having Mike at Verastarr make me up a replacement cable and will report back on that |
Just wanted to post some musings in additional impacts of getting grounding right with unepexected benefits from the oddest of places.
While I’m still getting great results from the SR active blocks as my primary ground solution I have started to add additional Taiko ground blocks (primarily the D3 model, new and currently not listed on their web site).
The two areas where adding a dedicated ground has had the most impact are unexpectedly a) the power supply to my Herzan isolation for the turntable and b) the Mutec 10MHz Reference clock for my DCS stack. In both cases adding a dedicated ground substantially clarified instrumental and vocal lines placing players so much more securely in space and bringing out differences between players and singers that had previously been masked. It seems that in both analog and digital replay the effect of micro level timing disruptions whether from the clock (in the digital case) or acoustic interference (in the analog) has a profound effect in messing up tiny timing cues that are basic to creating the impression of a real sound space.
Once again an example of how as you optimize your system the smallest details take on ever more importance, quite the opposite of the diminishing returns principle! |
@sleepwalker close reading of this thread will have identified instances where grounding of passive equipment (ie stands) and ones not in any way in the signal chain ( ie the Herzan) bring clear and obvious benefits. The claim that this is all down to poor design of active electronics while possible in the limited instances in which it directly applies is by no means the end of the story.
Secondly I suggest you do a little bit more research to understand the difference between the grounds we are discussing here and the safety ground ... the Taiko devices, as with many other similar ones, are purely passive and in no way connected to the mains ground |
@sleepwalker65 I’m more than happy to welcome you to come and listen to my system here in Portland. You’ll not only hear the effect of the various tweaks but also how such adjustments as changing where physically they are located has direct and repeatable impact on how they sound. Frankly I have no interest in nor pay any attention to the marketing explanations for any of these, I simply try them out and work out if and how best to use them. My intent in initiating this thread was to encourage others to do the same, that is after all the point of this board and of this hobby. |
That’s an interesting observation. It actually jibes with my experience with the same cable. I purchased that model recently intending to use it on the power supply for my Herzan isolation table but I found it sucked the life right out of the system (crazy I know that this could be from an isolation component). I soon dropped that and went back to a more basic cable that worked much better. Not what I expect from a $1.5k power cord
I’ve never tried changing the cables that came with my ground boxes but maybe I should and see what effect it has so thanks for suggesting that |
As well as the power cord there's also an "Active EM Cell" in the SE model -- I've never done a head to head comparison so have no perspective as to the incremental benefits of the added cost.
My recommendation would be to get a start on grounding with a model that suits your budget and spend the extra on better ground wires rather than the unit itself -- the benefits of using the SR HD cords (or having Mike Powell at Verastarr make up cables for you) is substantial over the (frankly) useless basic cords and the money you spend on these will pay back if/when you upgrade the ground block itself |
Yes -- Mike makes the SR type ground cables to special order but the quality is good and the pricing fair (about half of what SR ask for their HDs) |
