Phase Coherence or Time Alignment: Which More Imp?


This thread is really a follow on from a prior one that I let lapse. Thanks to everyone who contributed and helped me to better understand the importance of crossover design in building a loudspeaker. What I gathered from the last thread that there are opposing camps with different philosophies in crossover design. Leaving aside for a moment those that champion steep slope designs, my question is for those who have experience with speakers that are time aligned and/or phase coherent (using 1st order 6db per octave crossovers). Which is more important, phase coherence or time alignment? In other words, which more strongly influences the sound and performance of a loudspeaker? The reason I ask is because of the four speaker lines currently on my shortlist of floorstanders, three are either phase coherent or time aligned or both. The Wilson Benesch Curve's/ACT's and the Fried Studio 7 use 1st order crossovers but do not time align the drivers through the use of a slanted baffle. The Vandersteen 5's and the Quatro's both time align the drivers and use 1st order crossovers. I guess what I am asking is do you need to do both or is the real benefit in the crossover design? I'd appreciate your views.
BTW the other speaker is the Proac D25 and D38
dodgealum
Suits me:

You don't need a stepped baffle to get time-alignment. A sloped front baffle actually works better.

Bud did recommend that most of his bookshelf speakers be listened to from a certain axis.

This brings me to my next point, and it involves an earlier comment I saw about the new Monitor 7 and Studio 7 not being time-aligned.

The acoustic center of a typical tweeter is closer to the plane of the front mounting plate than in a woofer. Since you're sitting out in front of the speakers, we can say that you're closer to the tweeter (to the tweeter's acoustic center). That's a bad thing if we're looking for time-alignment.

So we need to move the tweeter farther away (or the woofer closer). Stepping the baffle can move the tweeter farther away, as can sloping the baffle.

With something like the Monitor 7s, you're meant to listen on-axis with the woofers. The tweeters are off-axis, so they're farther away from your ears. In this case, time-alignment is accomplished without sloping or stepping the baffle.

All we're really looking for is to align the _distance_ from each driver to your ear to be the same.

So Bud had designs that had sloped front baffles, and he also had designs where you were meant to listen from a certain point where the distance from the drivers to your ear was equal.

I used to listen to my Betas on stands that tilted them back. An possibly equivalent method would have been to place them on taller stands. In this case Bud recommended tilting. I can only assume that he looked at the positioning of the drivers and their respective acoustic centers and determined that placing them tilted back was correct.

He recommended that the A/3s that my brother owned be placed on taller stands, with the woofer at ear level.

As you can see, it's difficult to judge whether a speaker is time-aligned or not, unless you also know where your ears are meant to be in relation to the drivers.

BTW, I don't feel stepped-baffles are a good idea because you can get big problems with reflections and diffraction. Fried suggests another problem:

"We have developed as our first possibility three drive systems, in time proper enclosures, joined by a network that makes them “phase coherent”. These we must get to work in a “phase aligned” fashion, i.e., all providing the proper data to the listener at the proper time. The only way known to the author is to place the drivers on a sloping baffle, so that the propagating center of each driver is in vertical alignment with each of the others. If we place them on a flat board, we will be phase coherent but not phase aligned; if we place the bass units out in front, with a step back to the mid, and another step to the tweeter, we will get proper time at just one seat on axis, every other seat in the room being very out of phase; and we will have introduced severe problems in the vertical plane. The best we can do is to slope the baffle, either by designing it in; or by recommending that the speaker be used on a tilt back stand."

Note that he re-thought this later and arrived at time-alignment as done in the Monitor 7s as an alternate. (I first saw that same arrangement on the Studio IVs.)
I regret that I never got subwoofers to match my C/3-Ls. I am planning to buy a pair of Monitor 5s, which likely don't image as well, but have better bass and maybe even better midrange due to less reflections back through the cone.

The Monitor 7s evidently may have bass that's a bit better than that, but they use a tweeter that is not as good.

Perhaps a much deeper C style cabinet would help avoid reflections, but you're still dealing with pretty tight spacing. The larger cabinets of the floor-standers give you much more room for the line and its folds, but you get a larger front baffle along with it. Topping a rectangular cabinet with a truncated pyramid would help, but then your cabinet costs go way up.
Suits_me> Is there a vintage site with a picture of the C/3L?

There is a picture at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IM_Fried/?yguid=180415640

They appear to be of early-middle vintage, judging by the drivers. My C/3-Ls resembled these at one point, although I used a single piece of foam to cover the tweeters without a cutout for the dome. (The foam they sell for air-conditioner filters works quite well.)
Thank you all for the interesting info and links.

>You don't need a stepped baffle to get time-alignment. A sloped front baffle actually works better.

I was imprecise, and meant to indicate aligned acoustic centers, be it via stepped or sloped baffles or adjustable drive units.