I have a friend with very large room also- he has Infinity Betas- big monsters with separate woofer columns. He is using Sim Audio W-10 SS monoblocks. They are 1,400 watts into 4 ohms, and the bass control is phenomenal. http://simaudio.com/moonw10.htm
Maggie 3.6R performance dilemma..
Maggie 3.6R performance dilemma..
Hi,
I hope I'm not abusing this forum with too many Magnepan posts; this is my third post in as many weeks!
I have used the forum as a research tool, reading through older threads to see what others are doing with their Maggie's. I've implemented some of what I've read, wherever possible, but so far I haven't been successful in extracting what I believe these speakers have to offer.
So I'm hoping for some new insights into the 3.6R's and also wanting to share some observations that may (or may not) be useful to potential Maggie owners.
First, I've rearranged things in my room a little to decrease the cubic feet of the listening space. Some previous feedback suggested that my room may be too big. The speakers now operate in a space as follows:
48'X28'X10' The 10' ceiling height is directly above the speakers, however this is a gallery and approximately 4 feet forward from the speakers the room opens into a cathedral ceiling which peaks at 28'.
I have the speakers on the long wall, but cannot place them centrally on the wall. They are 12' apart (centre to centre) with approximately 9' to the side wall from the right speaker and 27' to the left side wall.
They are 6.2 feet from the front wall (based on the Cardas rule of ceiling height times 0.618) 18 feet from the listening chair with 3 feet behind the chair to a very reflective rear wall. (I will try to dampen this with drapes in the near future).
Toe-in angle is low at about 5-7 degrees. I have the tweeters on the outside so prefer to keep a small toe-in angle to have the tweeters further from my ear than the mid/bass, as suggested in the Magnepan manual.
Naturally I have experimented with positioning. I have tried variations in all directions but have not attained what I consider to be acceptable sound for reasons to follow.
The basic plan on buying these speakers (used) was to play them at low volumes with my existing Conrad Johnson CAV 50 and spend a week or two trying more powerful SS amps from local dealers, then to buy a new pre/power or integrated, with a $4500 budget.
I tend to play jazz, acoustic, some classical (nothing too brutal) at louder than normal levels. I haven't used an SPL meter, so I don't have an actual level recorded, but opinions of the occasional guest tend to suggest that I listen on the loud side.
I first tried a Belles 250i integrated. My local dealer, who is very experienced in high-end and seemed to be familiar with the 3.6's suggested the modestly rated (125 watts into 8 ohms) Belles based on it's higher than normal current delivery (about 25 amps if I remember correctly) and it's 'musicality'. He advised against the Rotel RB1090 which has higher output, but is far less 'musical' (his words).
The Belles was clearly an accomplished integrated, but for my tastes way too bright and forward. I tried to tame the brightness by moving the speakers....but with little effect.
Next I tried a McIntosh MC 6500 integrated. This had some appeal, sounding more tube like and warmer. However, it quickly ran out of steam, with the powerguard warning indicators flashing on and off even at modest volume levels. It also lacked transparency, didn't image very well and just sounded compressed - obviously lacking power.
Feeling somewhat inclined toward persue the Mac sound for it's warmer presentation, I thought the new MC 252 power amp with autoformers might deliver, given it's 200 watts into 2,4,8 ohms and its better load handling capability with the autoformers.
Well, it sounded better, more dynamic, more transparent....however, it cut-out completely several times on louder passages, the PowerGuard indicators locked in the 'on' position until the signal was removed and the amps allowed to 'cool'.
I then considered trying the MC602 with 600 watts per channel, but now I'm up at $8k without a pre-amp!!
So, to take a breather I rigged up my old CJ CAV50, and to be blunt, despite its inability to play loud, it just sounds so much more musical than any of the other amps I've tried. It also does play quite loud. Almost as loud as the MC6500, without the significant fall-off in performance when overstretched. It also demonstrates to me that tube watts are really bigger than SS watts!! (LOL, yes I know a watt is a Joule/sec and can't be stretched or made any bigger with a tube - but I'll be darned if they don't 'sound' louder!)
So, I'm now hell bent on staying with tubes.
I'm looking at maybe some Cary V12 monoblocks or a VT100 MkII.....advice here would be greatly appreciated....do they have enough power for 3.6R's in a larger than average space?
Lastly, and perhaps most important, with the 4 amps that I've used so far, I'm missing some aspects of the sound presentation that I particularly enjoyed from my old monitors and from other speakers that I've used in the past, including Quad ESL57's. I don't know if this is due to the amp/power deficiencies, the room, or is inherent in the speaker presentation.
All 4 amps that I've used have been unable to open the soundstage width beyond the limits of the speakers. When I read about 'wall to wall' soundstage, well it just isn't happening, and I find that surprising and disappointing. I don't expect a 45' wide stage, but perhaps 4 or5 feet beyond the speakers ought to be attainable on some recordings? My QLN monitors opened a wider stage than I've heard from the Maggie’s. Also, using closely miked acoustic music, small jazz ensembles etc (The Steve Green Trio disc and Diana Krall live in Paris spring to mind), the musicians are gathered tightly within the space between the speakers, at times sounding like they are sitting in each others laps! It just isn't recreating the dimension of a live recording as I expected, given the parameters and dimensions of my room. Incidentally, I haven't moved the speakers since I tried the MC252, and on the Steve Green Trio recording, both guitars sounded overlapped, like the players were standing one behind the other. Now with my CJ CAV 50, there is a little separation between the two, not enough for it to sound realistic, but better than with the Mac.
So how can this just be a function of underpowered amplification? Is it something much more fundamental?....The stage width sounded no different on the MC252 than it does on my CAV 50....200watts versus 45watts, but the 45 watter improves separation and imaging within the confines of the stage. The 125w Belles probably opened the stage a little wider than the MC252, but barely noticeable.
To add to my dilemma, there is virtually no discernable lower octaves on most recordings, I mean no bass. Listening to Clapton's Unplugged, the bass impact on the track 'Old Love' is completely missing, as are other bass lines that I'm familiar with on this recording.
Do I have the speakers positioned incorrectly?. I read about Maggie’s needing room to breath, well this is a fairly large room and they ought to be working much better than they are. My main fault so far is that I haven't been very systematic about moving the speakers in small increments until I find the optimum position. I've tried them at 4' from the front wall where bass seemed no better, so I brought them out to the Cardas recommended position at 6.18 feet. I've slid them back and forth a little from that position but without any positive effect.
Are they too far apart?....when I reduce the 12 feet centre to centre to 10' it reduces the stage width, which goes against what I'm trying to achieve. It warms the tonal balance slightly, given the added centre fill energy, but it doesn't improve bass response or stage width.
Does anyone have a setup procedure that works well with planars? Is it worthwhile even bothering with fine adjustment until I have a more powerful amp in place?
The bottom line is: I'm concerned about spending big money on high powered tube amps, if what I'm hearing is basically the sonic signature of these particular speakers, and other deficiencies that cannot be overcome with my room parameters.
After all, I could ditch the 3.6 and go with a higher efficiency box speaker and keep my CJ amp, and only have to spend another $2,000, perhaps less?
I'm sure that I cannot be the first person having a largely negative experience with the 3.6, though I suspect many people try to use these in rooms that are way too small.
Does anyone have any thoughts as to a way forward that would provide me with a sound that:-
Is non-fatiguing at higher SPL's
Is realistic in its presentation of stage width and depth.
Is realistic in its imaging ability and it's placement of performers on the stage, with realistic separation between performers.
Is realistic in reproducing mid bass and lower bass frequencies, not 'earth shattering' bass, just tuneful bass that underpins the music and adds to the realism of the reproduced event.
Is perhaps slightly warmer than most SS fans would like, with a little over-emphasis of the mids (tube-like bloom that I'm used to hearing with my little CJ integrated).
My other equipment is as follows:
Audio Alchemy DDS Pro Transport
Audio Alchemy Dti Pro 32 signal enhancer/jitter remover.
Musical Fidelity Upsampling DAC set at 192khz
Also tried a Monarchy Audio 18B DAC with volume pot to drive the Mac 252 directly from the DAC.
Various cables of reasonable grade, Acoustic Zen, Flatwire Twin etc (I'm a John Dulavy supporter and believe that wire is wire is wire is....)
I apologize for this long post. However, I’m certain that many people use these posts as a reference when sourcing new equipment, improving the sound of their existing rigs, or just reading for general amusement. So the more information the better, in my opinion.
It seems I'm one of the few that (so far) isn't getting what they expected from the Magnepan speakers, but I'm open and receptive to any ideas and input that others may have.
Many thanks in advance.
Regards
Rooze
Hi,
I hope I'm not abusing this forum with too many Magnepan posts; this is my third post in as many weeks!
I have used the forum as a research tool, reading through older threads to see what others are doing with their Maggie's. I've implemented some of what I've read, wherever possible, but so far I haven't been successful in extracting what I believe these speakers have to offer.
So I'm hoping for some new insights into the 3.6R's and also wanting to share some observations that may (or may not) be useful to potential Maggie owners.
First, I've rearranged things in my room a little to decrease the cubic feet of the listening space. Some previous feedback suggested that my room may be too big. The speakers now operate in a space as follows:
48'X28'X10' The 10' ceiling height is directly above the speakers, however this is a gallery and approximately 4 feet forward from the speakers the room opens into a cathedral ceiling which peaks at 28'.
I have the speakers on the long wall, but cannot place them centrally on the wall. They are 12' apart (centre to centre) with approximately 9' to the side wall from the right speaker and 27' to the left side wall.
They are 6.2 feet from the front wall (based on the Cardas rule of ceiling height times 0.618) 18 feet from the listening chair with 3 feet behind the chair to a very reflective rear wall. (I will try to dampen this with drapes in the near future).
Toe-in angle is low at about 5-7 degrees. I have the tweeters on the outside so prefer to keep a small toe-in angle to have the tweeters further from my ear than the mid/bass, as suggested in the Magnepan manual.
Naturally I have experimented with positioning. I have tried variations in all directions but have not attained what I consider to be acceptable sound for reasons to follow.
The basic plan on buying these speakers (used) was to play them at low volumes with my existing Conrad Johnson CAV 50 and spend a week or two trying more powerful SS amps from local dealers, then to buy a new pre/power or integrated, with a $4500 budget.
I tend to play jazz, acoustic, some classical (nothing too brutal) at louder than normal levels. I haven't used an SPL meter, so I don't have an actual level recorded, but opinions of the occasional guest tend to suggest that I listen on the loud side.
I first tried a Belles 250i integrated. My local dealer, who is very experienced in high-end and seemed to be familiar with the 3.6's suggested the modestly rated (125 watts into 8 ohms) Belles based on it's higher than normal current delivery (about 25 amps if I remember correctly) and it's 'musicality'. He advised against the Rotel RB1090 which has higher output, but is far less 'musical' (his words).
The Belles was clearly an accomplished integrated, but for my tastes way too bright and forward. I tried to tame the brightness by moving the speakers....but with little effect.
Next I tried a McIntosh MC 6500 integrated. This had some appeal, sounding more tube like and warmer. However, it quickly ran out of steam, with the powerguard warning indicators flashing on and off even at modest volume levels. It also lacked transparency, didn't image very well and just sounded compressed - obviously lacking power.
Feeling somewhat inclined toward persue the Mac sound for it's warmer presentation, I thought the new MC 252 power amp with autoformers might deliver, given it's 200 watts into 2,4,8 ohms and its better load handling capability with the autoformers.
Well, it sounded better, more dynamic, more transparent....however, it cut-out completely several times on louder passages, the PowerGuard indicators locked in the 'on' position until the signal was removed and the amps allowed to 'cool'.
I then considered trying the MC602 with 600 watts per channel, but now I'm up at $8k without a pre-amp!!
So, to take a breather I rigged up my old CJ CAV50, and to be blunt, despite its inability to play loud, it just sounds so much more musical than any of the other amps I've tried. It also does play quite loud. Almost as loud as the MC6500, without the significant fall-off in performance when overstretched. It also demonstrates to me that tube watts are really bigger than SS watts!! (LOL, yes I know a watt is a Joule/sec and can't be stretched or made any bigger with a tube - but I'll be darned if they don't 'sound' louder!)
So, I'm now hell bent on staying with tubes.
I'm looking at maybe some Cary V12 monoblocks or a VT100 MkII.....advice here would be greatly appreciated....do they have enough power for 3.6R's in a larger than average space?
Lastly, and perhaps most important, with the 4 amps that I've used so far, I'm missing some aspects of the sound presentation that I particularly enjoyed from my old monitors and from other speakers that I've used in the past, including Quad ESL57's. I don't know if this is due to the amp/power deficiencies, the room, or is inherent in the speaker presentation.
All 4 amps that I've used have been unable to open the soundstage width beyond the limits of the speakers. When I read about 'wall to wall' soundstage, well it just isn't happening, and I find that surprising and disappointing. I don't expect a 45' wide stage, but perhaps 4 or5 feet beyond the speakers ought to be attainable on some recordings? My QLN monitors opened a wider stage than I've heard from the Maggie’s. Also, using closely miked acoustic music, small jazz ensembles etc (The Steve Green Trio disc and Diana Krall live in Paris spring to mind), the musicians are gathered tightly within the space between the speakers, at times sounding like they are sitting in each others laps! It just isn't recreating the dimension of a live recording as I expected, given the parameters and dimensions of my room. Incidentally, I haven't moved the speakers since I tried the MC252, and on the Steve Green Trio recording, both guitars sounded overlapped, like the players were standing one behind the other. Now with my CJ CAV 50, there is a little separation between the two, not enough for it to sound realistic, but better than with the Mac.
So how can this just be a function of underpowered amplification? Is it something much more fundamental?....The stage width sounded no different on the MC252 than it does on my CAV 50....200watts versus 45watts, but the 45 watter improves separation and imaging within the confines of the stage. The 125w Belles probably opened the stage a little wider than the MC252, but barely noticeable.
To add to my dilemma, there is virtually no discernable lower octaves on most recordings, I mean no bass. Listening to Clapton's Unplugged, the bass impact on the track 'Old Love' is completely missing, as are other bass lines that I'm familiar with on this recording.
Do I have the speakers positioned incorrectly?. I read about Maggie’s needing room to breath, well this is a fairly large room and they ought to be working much better than they are. My main fault so far is that I haven't been very systematic about moving the speakers in small increments until I find the optimum position. I've tried them at 4' from the front wall where bass seemed no better, so I brought them out to the Cardas recommended position at 6.18 feet. I've slid them back and forth a little from that position but without any positive effect.
Are they too far apart?....when I reduce the 12 feet centre to centre to 10' it reduces the stage width, which goes against what I'm trying to achieve. It warms the tonal balance slightly, given the added centre fill energy, but it doesn't improve bass response or stage width.
Does anyone have a setup procedure that works well with planars? Is it worthwhile even bothering with fine adjustment until I have a more powerful amp in place?
The bottom line is: I'm concerned about spending big money on high powered tube amps, if what I'm hearing is basically the sonic signature of these particular speakers, and other deficiencies that cannot be overcome with my room parameters.
After all, I could ditch the 3.6 and go with a higher efficiency box speaker and keep my CJ amp, and only have to spend another $2,000, perhaps less?
I'm sure that I cannot be the first person having a largely negative experience with the 3.6, though I suspect many people try to use these in rooms that are way too small.
Does anyone have any thoughts as to a way forward that would provide me with a sound that:-
Is non-fatiguing at higher SPL's
Is realistic in its presentation of stage width and depth.
Is realistic in its imaging ability and it's placement of performers on the stage, with realistic separation between performers.
Is realistic in reproducing mid bass and lower bass frequencies, not 'earth shattering' bass, just tuneful bass that underpins the music and adds to the realism of the reproduced event.
Is perhaps slightly warmer than most SS fans would like, with a little over-emphasis of the mids (tube-like bloom that I'm used to hearing with my little CJ integrated).
My other equipment is as follows:
Audio Alchemy DDS Pro Transport
Audio Alchemy Dti Pro 32 signal enhancer/jitter remover.
Musical Fidelity Upsampling DAC set at 192khz
Also tried a Monarchy Audio 18B DAC with volume pot to drive the Mac 252 directly from the DAC.
Various cables of reasonable grade, Acoustic Zen, Flatwire Twin etc (I'm a John Dulavy supporter and believe that wire is wire is wire is....)
I apologize for this long post. However, I’m certain that many people use these posts as a reference when sourcing new equipment, improving the sound of their existing rigs, or just reading for general amusement. So the more information the better, in my opinion.
It seems I'm one of the few that (so far) isn't getting what they expected from the Magnepan speakers, but I'm open and receptive to any ideas and input that others may have.
Many thanks in advance.
Regards
Rooze
- ...
- 44 posts total
- 44 posts total