2. analog
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Questions about SACD vs.analog for classical music

I've just ordered a VPI Scoutmaster. A rather impulsive decision made at just the point when I was about to have my Sony 9000es modded. Not quite just at the point, but right after I removed my Hw-19jr/pt-6/Glider/blackcube rig from storage in order to get the parts ready for shipping to they new owners. I had what i thought would be my last night listening to the TT, after a several year hiatus, and you know what? There was that organic something, that harmonic coherence in certain recordings that I noticed only in the very best SACDs. In some of my LPs, that 'present' or 'real' feeling exceeded all but one or two of my SACDs (only the Rite of Spring on Telarc, a few tracks from the telarc classical sampler 2, and one other were superior to anything I heard on the VPI). OK, the SACDs were obviously cleaner sounding and more extended (I was using Stax sr-lambda phones) except when compared to a couple of the highest quality analogue productions lps I own, but it got me thinking: hey, if my humble jr. sounds this good now, I can only wonder how good one of the purportedly much improved high-end rigs would sound. The Sony mods would have cost upwards of $1300, but selling my jr. and lumping all that dough together and allocating it to a renewed involvement in analog looked, well, promising.
So I ordered a new Scoutmaster (at substantial discount) with the JMW-9 arm and am now by the way researching my options for cartridges and preamps. I've sold my blackcube, but have a Jolida JD-9 on load from a dealer, which sounds very nice with the jr. (the sold TT about to be shipped) - very vivid and harmonically satisfying, well articulated, etc - though it's not as quiet as the 'Cube and I even can hear some AM radio coming through my phones when I turn up my linestage preamp volume. But here I digress.
My main reason for starting this thread, aside from having some assorted questions about carts, preamps, and the like, is to ask for some objective and subjective opinions regarding the decision I just made. Bear in mind that my main interest is classical music, especially chamber (esp. string quartets, trios, wind quintets, etc) and piano with some orchestral, followed by classic rock and some Blue-Note era jazz. The SACD route seemed promising at first, and I told myself that, even though there were only a smattering of sacd recordings for many of my favorite classical performers (eg. Elly Ameling Soprano, Yo-Yo Ma, Rubinstein), there were so many truly talented lesser-knowns on the sacd scene (e.g. pianist Freddy Kempf on BIS, Csaba and Heisser on Praga digitals, and of course Paavo Jaervi on Telarc) that I deemed my chances of attaining long-term satisfaction with purely sacd (and a little redbook on the side) to be very good. Especially after sacd mods. As for classic rock, the SACD of the Police Synchronicity just blew me away (through Sennheiser HD600w/cardas cable).
But THEN it occurred to me that the only way to possibly hear my very favorite string quartet - the Vegh Quartet - in better than redbook fidelity was through vinyl. Ditto for numerous other performers who will never appear on sacd. Then of course there's always the Beatles, Stones, Jerry Garcia and others to sweeten the deal for vinyl. By the way, I sold my Ikemi redbook player in order to open up some new options and try something new. Even my girlfriend almost cried to see the Ikemi go, her having been converted just enough to an audiophile that she could absolutely see someone justifying having spent almost four grand on a source component (even a non-disc changer)
So what do you guys think? When my scoutmaster arrives, am I in for some visceral thrills and deep musical connection? I know that it's also dependent on the rest of my system, and so far I've narrowed cart choices down to the Lyras and the Shelters, leaning heavily towards the former. As for phono preamps I'm considering the Linto, Ear 834p mm/mc, and a few others including a modded Jolida JD-9 or something along those lines.

Is the scoutmaster, fitted with a $1000+ cartridge and a similarly priced phono preamp, going through Cardas golden reference into either a Bryston B60 integrated (and then to Sennheisers or B&wdm603) OR into a Stax srm-t1 tube driver of my Stax electrostats, going to 'knock my socks off' as suggested by Mike at VPI yesterday? How close can I get to SACD (especially to the 'pure DSD') fidelity through this setup? I know speed stability and noise floor will be drastically improved, giving tones accuracy and timbral accuracy, and i expect bass to be better and overall macro and microdynamics as well BUT... am I going to be able to achieve some of the same absolutely organic, sparkling, and pure sound of some of the better DSD recordings? What about the musical clarity per se of redbook, in particular when listening to string quartets and the like? Will I get a 'clean' sound in the tonal sense, not overly dark, but a sound that seems right? What about the upper octave of piano?
I once read an article long ago (i believe it was in stereophile) in which the author admitting to prefering cassette tape over vinyl due to it having cleaner and more pitch accurate upper octave reproduction. That was then, this is now. What do you guys think? (last time I'll ask that, I promise!)

Ted
tedd1
dgad
782 posts
 
Lazarus28,

I had a feeling after posting my response I might get a few who disagree. I will agree that unless your vinyl setup is at the very top the EMM is better. I had to upgrade my Vinyl setup significantly to better the EMM. I don't want to make light of your analogue setup, it is a very good one, but you do have colorations from your vinyl setup. I do feel that you are close to the top in analogue setups out there but you can improve on it. I have played the EMM setup for numerous listeners. We all agree it is very close. It is just that Analogue sounds more real. The choice in cartridge & tonearm etc will determine the coloration - if any. The EMM is also slightly colored & can be a little dry.

The statement you are referring to re: an Audiogon member stating that if he didn't have his Rockport he might not have purchased one after hearing the EMM. But on further clarification one Rockport owner has more than clearly indicated that he preferred Analogue to the EMM setup. This is the question I asked before I upgraded my Analogue front end. After I purchased my EMM setup I realized what digital was capable of (my previous CD player was an Audio Aero Capitole Mk II, no slouch, but extensively bettered by analogue from bass to treble and more). I also noticed that the midrange was still slightly but noticeably superior on Vinyl. I then asked many people who owned both the EMM stack & a top end Analogue setup, via private emails, if Analogue can better the EMM setup and at what level. All responded that in their systems they prefer analogue. They also all mentioned they are happy with their EMM gear. Now if I relied on hearsay I might still be second guessing. In my system it is easy to hear the superiority of vinyl over the EMM. You might call it my preference for the coloration of Vinyl. I would then say that every piece of equipment has coloration as does the EMM so your argument really makes no sense to me.

Now although it is easy to hear, it is still very very close. Weighing the convenience and availability of CD / SACD material does have advantages. One thing that I have doubts about is that pure DSD recordings are incredible & do challenge Analogue. I have a few and I find them incredible. The original PCM recordings are often poor. I have several LPs which I have either on CD or SACD. Except for the DSD recordings I find the LPs more real & enjoyable.
stefanl
296 posts
 
"It is nothing less than a tragedy that the Sony/Philips system SACD still is considered to be a real competitor to DVD-A, though it has lower real resolution than the CD-system in the highest octave.
DVD-A does absolutely offer a much higher dynamic range than CD, but it is very questionable if SACD does.
SACD is in the high frequency range quite mediocre, even compared to a good CD-system one-bit DAC, and of course clearly inferior to a CD-player with a real multi-bit converter.
On the contrary, DVD-A is in theory 250 times better than the CD-system at all frequencies!
Another way to describe the difference: The noise [power] from SACD is more than 20,000 million times higher than from DVD-A!
But maybe it is more relevant to know that this ultrasound noise from SACD is enough to warm up the tweeters voice coil with some detectable influence on reproduced sound. Besides, the ultrasonic may also affect the audible sound by down mixing in the air, at least at higher sound pressures." These comments were made by a respected Swedish Sound Engineer Ing Ohman in a Swedish Audio Journal,not to mention the general academic rejection of Single Bit DSD as a system capable of producing audio of the highest quality without inherent oversaturation.
inpepinnovations1e75
395 posts
 
Cjfrbw, think how much better vinyl is in multichannel format! SQ, QS anyone? Must be better than multichannel SACD!?
lazarus28
339 posts
 
stefanl - we've all read the spin you're attempting to bring into this discussion under the guise of real journalism. none of the arguments you've brought up have been proven. none of them.

you can bring up Ing Ohman as a respected figure in audio all you want. i'll trust ed meitner and my own ears over him any day. we could start posting the contributions of each figure to the audio community, but that would be pointless. you believe the spin - i don't. i've heard otherwise, and have read into those arguments enough to know that they're false, and are usually tried to be justified by simple mathematical equations that don't hold water because of the person's misunerstanding of the inherent redundencies of the two encoding schemes. DSD has more information in the upper octaves, not less.

i can also sit here and qoute holocaust deniers and call them 'respected journalists' but that doesn't make it true. for all of your attempted intellectual snoberry, you'd think you would listen for yourself and do a bit more research before reposting material that has been, for the most part, disproven.

am i up to the level of (human) yet? or will i not be until i own another vinyl rig?
stefanl
296 posts
 
I cannot see that you could apply the'journalist' appellation to Stereophile's Editor-In-Chief John Atkinson who has done extremely interesting research into SACD performance.In the Stereophile Think Pieces archives there is a piece called 'What's Going On Up There' where Atkinson a producer in his own right,examines firstly vinyl and then as a follow-up,measures the upper end frequency levels of SACD.'His comments are very informative!(re PINK NOISE) Although very careful, any equally sharp reader can decipher Atkinson’s opinion from the text.'(Ohman)I don't think Dr's Lipshitz and Vanderkooy who presented the paper on how 1Bit DSD is inimicable to Audio of the highest quality at the AES convention in the U.S 1n 2001 and where Sony had to admit to persisting with Multi-Bit PCM,to be 'Holocaust deniers' as you put it.Please refute the fact of the PINK NOISE at 45Khz in SACD,which has been published graphically in Stereophile and the common acceptance of SACD's poor performance above 10Khz.Better still get one of the Stone's vinyl DSD releases and hear how truly bad this format is,even compared to London Electronically Processed reissues.
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