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Trelja in New York

Well, here it is. My own personal show report. I guess I should be ashamed of myself. Taking up all of this space and all. First, I regret that I did not meet anyone from Audiogon at the show. The show had a MUCH larger attendance than I ever could have anticipated. I mean it was gigantic. And many people there had no idea about high end audio. Second, my lucky day! While I was standing in line to purchase a ticket, a guy announced that the show sucked, and was offering to give his away. Guess who the lucky recipient was? Well, I was able to save the price of admission. I did give my $4 coupon to the guy behind me. Now, for the show... I was disappointed in the sound of most of the rooms. Other than exhibitors displaying on the 2nd and 4th floors, the rooms were just too small. It was a joke. Virtually everyone displaying on the 9th, 10th, and 42nd floors were in bad rooms. Especially, those on the 9th and 10th floors. These manufacturers simply overpowered the rooms they were in. Sound was horrible. One exception to the "too small room" set was Talon speakers. A lousy sounding speaker in my opinion. Thin, weak, and underpowered. Anemic. They definitely get the "all show, no go" award. This is a speaker with a 5 digit price tag? I wonder how someone who owns this speaker feels. They were eclipsed in the "biggest disappointment" category however. By none other than the $85K Dynaudio Evidence. Yes, they play loud, and without strain. That is the best thing I can say about them. But, they need to go visit the Wizard. They have no heart, or soul. These two speakers are proof positive of two things. One, you don't have to spend a lot of money to get good sound. And two, brains and money do not necessarily go hand in hand. Next up for duds was the Creek demo. Nice turntable, but their amp/speakers were terrible. I have heard Creek amps sound a heck of a lot better. Poor job by a good company goes to Rogue. I forget the other companies in their room already, and they should take my lead. Their electronics are a bit pushy, and need to be mated with speakers and cables which are more mellow. It was not the case here, and the sound was bad. Linn was also getting poor sound, despite the fact that they were in a good room. Too much bass and brightness. Are they going for the boom and sizzle crowd? Silverline and Triangle speakers can sound much better than they did at this show. And what is going on with Alon these days? Here was a great speaker company. Their new products seem to be aimed squarely at Donald Trump and Fabio. Expensive would be a supreme understatement. What happened to this company, with its value oriented philosophy? They would dominate just about any room. Nice treble coming from the Raven tweeter. Guess that answers our questions. Seems to be a great, high sensitivity tweeter. Should we think of this tweeter for the SET crowd? Another disappointment, Red Rose Music. They are coming hard, but give them a good listen, and see that if you stop listening to what they tell you you are hearing, the sound is definitely not worth the asking price. Don't believe the hype. Nice treble though, ala the ribbon tweeter(just like Alon). One more. Whoever that horn speaker company is who was in the Atma Sphere room, please GET OUT of the speaker business. Now. And Atma Sphere, you did yourselves a tremendous disservice by teaming up with that company. Fundamentally flawed is all I can say about those horns. Speaking of horns, I was not able to listen to the AvantGardes(ran a demo every 30 minutes), one of the few I could not hear. As I said, most of the sound was bad. I wonder how I would feel if I was showing my products with this kind of sound. Mortified, I think. OK, enough griping, let's get to the winners. First up is Trelja's "Best of Show" award. It goes to the Vandersteen 5s, driven by the new Cary V12 amps. By a landslide. A LOT of companies should take a lesson from what these guys are doing. Impressive. Most impressive. Next up is "Most Stunning" component. This one is also a landslide. The forthcoming Western Electric 300B amps. Yes, you read that right. Art deco. They are not yet operational, but coming in the summer. Just let me put it this way, if they sound 25% as good as they look, they will be the best amps you can buy. And, actually a bargain at $16/pair, complete with WE300B tubes. JMLabs speakers sounded great. These guys are pros. Coincident took the "Best of Show" on one of the tough floors. I know I may seem to lack credibility on this one, but it is true. They did not destroy their sound, and that was enough to earn them the Blue Ribbon. The word smart comes to mind when thinking of the Musical Fidelity room. Unlike Rogue, they mated their products very well. Enough so that the whole system sounded warm and full, despite the new MF line being more neutral and analytical. These guys understand what good sound is. They used Analysis Plus cabling, and it was good(Megasam knows a good combination when he hears it). Merlin speakers struck me as something to try to hear more of, despite not sounding well in their rooms. Cary amps sounded good in most of the places they were playing. Mirage sounded good to me, despite having one of the empiest rooms in the whole show. The Joule Electra room(I forget who they teamed with) fell into the same group as Merlin for me. Not spectacular at the show, but I would like to hear them in a better setting. Dick Sequerra was a prince to me, despite being a God in this industry. Israel Blume was also stellar, though he is not yet a Dick Sequerra. All in all, not a bad time. Just that there were far too many people to be able to give some companies a really good listen. I think less attendance would be a boon to people like us. We would be able to focus more into every room. Hope everyone else who went enjoyed themselves.
trelja
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snooker14
164 posts
 
Trelja: if you get the Sequerra conditioner, let us know what you think. It is cheaper and smaller than PS audio, so I am seriously considering it too.
macm
116 posts
 
Trelja--First off, my comments to you were not intended to start any sort of flame war. I realize you were just stating your opinion, and I think we all recognize the time you took to record your thoughts for the membership here. I certainly don't have a problem with differing opinions. To each his own, as they say. My point was simply this: Having heard the gear under such poor listening conditions, you crossed the line from stating your opinion in the negative to essentially campaigning against certain products. It's like the difference between "I didn't like what I heard" and "this is garbage under any circumstances, don't waste your time." Knowing that you reached your conclusions in an overcrowded, undersized room in some hotel with a lousy elevator, that strikes me as just a little unfair. It's unfair to the companies you disparaged, and it's unfair to the membership that might be considering the products you put down. I think we've all been influenced one way or the other by online reviews/opinions we've read. I don't think it's right for anyone to dismiss a product as essentially junk unless they've given the product a fair shake under proper listening conditions. The issue isn't with your conclusions, it's with the way you arrived at them, and the force with which you then stated them. For the record, I've heard some of the gear you criticized (under much better listening conditions), and I can say that it competes with the best in its class. I won't get into makes and models as that is not my point. (And no, I don't work in the industry.) In summary--yes, we're all entitled to our opinions, but you don't do anyone any favors by telling them to look elsewhere when you really can't say you've properly auditioned the product yourself. It's a matter of fairness.
djjd
61 posts
 
Macm - Once again you said precisely what needed to be said without being uncivil or vindictive. Thank you. For the record, my earlier comments were not directed at Trelja's post in particular, though I too feel he crossed the line from offering an honest opinion to engaging in irresponsible negative campaigning. "Refreshing honesty"? Such arogant, absolutist, matter-of-fact criticisms -- based on a brief and unreliable listening session -- are not only unfair, they can be devastating to low-volume, high-end audio companies trying to explore new directions and advance the art of music reproduction. I'm actually surprised a few other Audiogoners tried to defend such rash statements. Tubegroover - I've valued your posts in the past, but perhaps you should read Trelja's remarks again: he never suggested the Talon speakers at the show needed to be broken-in or that poor set-up or room acoustics could have played a role in shaping his impressions. Instead, he stated categorically, and without allowing for any other explanations, that it is a "lousy sounding speaker." Since Trelja was aware that there are many other experienced listeners who are quite impressed with Talon speakers (see, e.g., his post trashing Legacy speakers in the 9-11-00 thread "Talon Khorus"), he should have at least allowed for the possibility that what he heard at the show wasn't the speaker's fault. He did not. Trelja could also have allowed for the possibility that maybe he just didn't like the unembellished, highly-revealing sound of the Talon because he personally favors warmer speakers like Vandersteen (which he praised) and Coincident (which he owned). No mention that this might have played a role in shaping his impressions either.

I wasn't able to attend the NY show, so I can't say how the various products criticized in this thread sounded as they were set up for the see-it, touch-it crowds. I'm sure many of the products did sound poor given the circumstances. But people need to keep in mind that such ad hoc venues are not reliable testing grounds and that each of the products in question may have real merits when tried objectively in a proper setting.

I haven't suggested before, and I'm not suggesting now, that people should censor their opinions. I do, however, feel we each have a responsibility to ensure the way we state an opinion is not slanderous or unfairly critical. I also believe each of us has a responsibility to discuss the possible factors that may have led us to a negative opinion of a product, particularly where the opinion is potentially very damaging and contrary to other reported opinions. As Macm astutely noted, it's not so much what you say but how you say it. Nevertheless, this is an open forum, and if you chose to act irresponsibly and severely criticize a product based on a quick listen in a marginal environment, without describing possible contributing factors, that's up to you. Just don't expect me to trust your opinions or advice ever again. And Trelja, if you're upset by this criticism of your post -- made from a few of your remarks and without my taking the time to get to know more about you -- perhaps this will help drive the point home. You've lost my respect, and since you are "NOT going to change" your shameful ways, you won't be getting it back. Don
brulee
564 posts
 
Djjd, you lost respect for Trelja because he reported back to us all what he heard? Was it Trelja's fault that some of these rooms were not set up properly. You were not at the show yet you blast Trelja for his opinions on what he heard. If telling it like it is is shameful then we need more shameful posters like Trelja and a few less cry babies.
When Stereopile comes out with it's show report I am sure you will feel vindicated. Djjd, you've lost my respect, and since you are not going to change your shameful ways, you won't be getting it back. Trelja, thanks for telling us what you heard.
brulee
564 posts
 
Trelja, in the thread ethics values and morals, there is some excellent advice by Djjd. If you gave an honest expression of your experience and weren't disrespectful--then just ignore the flies. How can they possibly hurt you. Ignore the flies Trelja. You said it Djjd, not me.
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