Take it on faith: A cease-and-desist letter to those who only believe in measurements


Faith is a firm belief in something for which there is no proof (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/faith). Faith is often considered to be distinct from and even contrary to science. I argue science is based on faith. Specifically, it is faith in the belief that measurements are always correct, and they alone can reveal the world around us. However, there is no evidence that this approach will always provide a correct and complete depiction of our environment.

I am not anti-science. In fact, I am all about science. I was a science major in college. I taught high school biology and chemistry. I employ science every day in my current career. I also use it to make decisions when it comes to audio, and I can point to a scientific basis behind my equipment decisions, speaker/listener locations and room treatment. I believe John Locke’s scientific method is a wonderful boon to mankind.  But although data may rule my life, I know that science has its limitations.

The scientific method is an empirical approach and relies on our eight senses or extensions thereof to measure phenomena, enabling us to better understand and control our environment. People who embrace this approach believe if something cannot be measured, it cannot exist. They have total faith in this approach and deny the credibility of others whose senses do not or cannot yield something in units. In essence, these disciples take it on faith that measurements are the only true way to make sense of the world. However, we just may not have developed the instrument that enables us to measure the event. Early digital is a good example of our senses superseding the limitations of our understanding of the technology and hence, our measurements. Other examples of this include our past beliefs that we could destroy mass, that the earth is flat, and the universe is not expanding. And cables and amplifiers all sound the same.

Others find their senses can reveal events that are not apparent to some and may not even be measurable. Some people can smell faint odors or feel a slight breeze that others cannot.  My wife can find a Petoskey stone on a beach out of thousands of rocks; I cannot see it even when I am standing over it. Different cables, fuses, amplifier topology, or cartridge design may or may not result in the same or even any data points and may or may not sound alike. But just because you cannot hear a difference nor measure a difference does not mean there is no difference. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, just as good sound may be in their ear.

Some of us have at least as much faith in our ears as we do in our REW software and associated hardware. I start room setup with acoustic theory and then confirm with measurements, but the final placement is always a result of what sounds most pleasing. I would not know how to determine speaker toe-in using a microphone.

While I will always have to trust my senses, I am not handicapped by relying solely on those that are associated with a number.

 “…not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted.” William Bruce Cameron, 1963

tcutter

@knownothing 

”Bringing this back to audio reproduction, some of the biggest unsettled arguments remain how different cable materials and configurations could change the sound we hear in our rooms, or how two amplifiers or DACs that measure nearly identically could sound different in our listening rooms, or how an amplifier or DAC that measure worse on the bench could actually sound better when experienced in our listening rooms.  And don’t even get me started on soundstage…

As you noted, the reductionist method works very well when the systems under consideration are uncomplicated and conducive to solving with simple experimental design. When we add complexity, controlling variables becomes much more difficult. In the case of evaluating hifi equipment, those variables include but are not limited to the quality of the supplied power and any power conditioning, the assemblage of equipment in the test, the configuration of the listening room, its materials and the placement of the speakers, and the seating position and listening skills of the person evaluating it.  

As commonly discussed here and elsewhere, the results of an evaluation of stereo equipment A versus B are only really valid for that particular “system”.  To get any statistically valid results requires careful ABX blind testing procedures and multiple listening “subjects” for both statistical power and to cover the potential variance in listening skills and hearing acuity. I have yet to see a really well designed “experiment” to test this because it is time consuming, and requires a large number of subjects tested one at a time in the sweet spot. This is still a reductionist approach, it is just a very complicated, and logistically and cost prohibitive in service of a point that has little transferable utility.

Based on all of this, the appeal among potential hifi shoppers to lean on bench test results derived with proven measurement equipment and protocols testing gear in complete isolation and calling that “Audio Science Review” is apparently immense. The alternatives are to trust the claims of manufacturers, the collective “wisdom” and experience on audio forums like this one, and/or trial and error testing at home in your listening room. Given the time and expense of the latter, there is ample motivation to disregard whole segments of products out of hand as voodoo, and take measurements as an insurance policy that an investment is well advised.

High end audio is for people with time and money. For many with limited time and a basic understanding of classical physics and electrical engineering and who just want to listen to music, a spec sheet is apparently plenty good.”

 

Well put. An excellent post. Just one small point I take issue with. Audio relies on more than just classical Physics. Without quantum mechanics, most electronic components wouldn’t exist.

Even in the world of classical Physics, Maxwell’s equations indicate that things are a great deal more complex than the ASR lobby admit. Perhaps we need a whole system-based approach. Inspired by Morin’s work on complexity, I attempted to create a model of audiophilia. It seemed to me that it could be thought of as a complex system consisting of three interacting sub-systems, Music, Gear and Listener in an Environment.

 

 

This is not to deny the importance of the individual components of each sub-system and the environment, but to stress that the whole may be greater than the sum of the parts. There are more components than I have listed. The ones shown are just for illustration.


Audio is multi-disciplinary. Hopefully, the model illustrates why the more focussed approaches taken on hifi forums don’t capture the entire picture. It should be obvious why the qualitative and quantitative are both important. They should not be characterised as being subjective and objective. As I said before, there’s no good reason why the quantitative should be privileged over the qualitative. There's plenty of qualitiative data in Physics.

 

 

 

A word is defined by a context  as well as by a dictionary...And all dictionary are not the same with different goals... ( a dictionary of slang is not Oxford etc ) 

The "popular" use of the word "Fringe" had most of the times pejorative connotation , especially in the context of science discourse...

The popular  actual meaning of a word is not necessarily  in the Oxford dictionary   which is more bent to the historical and litterary  meaning  of the word..

 As i said i dont doubt your good  intention...Then there is no problem...

I only answered to the evident  implicit meaning (pejorative) of this word  in the scientific context...

If we qualify Penrose ORCH as being  "fringe " science i think Penrose will not be more happy to read the Oxford definition... smiley

If you had said "marginal"  it would had been better and even Penrose would acquiesce because his ORCH is not universally accepted... The same is true for Anirban Bandyopadhy which  theoretical  work  is not universally recognized yet, even if as microtubules specialists he is very known .

 

@mahgister 

Please look up the definition of "fringe" from the Oxford Dictionary.

@newton_john 

Just one small point I take issue with. Audio relies on more than just classical Physics. Without quantum mechanics, most electronic components wouldn’t exist.

Even in the world of classical Physics, Maxwell’s equations indicate that things are a great deal more complex than the ASR lobby admit. Perhaps we need a whole system-based approach. Inspired by Morin’s work on complexity, I attempted to create a model of audiophilia. It seemed to me that it could be thought of as a complex system consisting of three interacting sub-systems, Music, Gear and Listener in an Environment.

100%.  That was my point, but apparently I was too subtle.

kn

 

 

 

Very good model of the problem, a problem which  the objectivist as the subjectivist always simplify, but one as the other do it   with their focus  merely on the gear properties...

In reality sound quality experience is conditioned  by a specific system/room and the acoustics and psycho-acoustics parameters of always   one individual ...Not by the gear specs measures which are by far when  well done and significative  are never sufficient ...

Even in a perfectly acoustically controlled room we need many psycho-acoustics measures of the system/room owner... Why ? Because acoustics principles differ completely in their application in great hall architecture and small room listening...

Then the audiophile experience is not first and last  about just "taste" & the history of the subject, which for sure matter,but first and last  about his objective psycho-acoustics parameters (inner ear measure ,HTRF etc ) 

If you like rock/pop/jazz/classical, nevermind which one the most,  the "timbre" experience, the dynamics, the ASW/LV ratio etc  all the necessary  acoustics  necessary parameters balance  objective parameters as psycho-acoustics one  will matter way more than your tastes history... The only case where the taste history matter is for reviews of audiophile products ...

A tuba (or an organ , or a guitar),  in jazz,rock,pop classical,or world music must sound like a tuba near you ....