Two Paths to Musical Truth: The Case for Both Solid-State and Tube Phono Stages

FIRST sound you here is a thump when the needle hits the groove,then snap,crackle & pop through the entire record..Does a recording engineer hear this at the session?

@freediver Please read my prior post as to why you might be experiencing ticks and pops that have nothing to do with the actual LP. 

The treble is not as attenuated as in the past.

@jsalerno277 If you’ve experienced this its likely not for the reason you think. Tube amps have had high frequency bandwidth well past 20KHz going back to the 1950s (the HK Citation 2 had bandwidth well past 50KHz). But one thing tubes do is they mask their higher ordered harmonic distortion very well and as a result seem to have less high frequency energy than most solid state amps (especially legacy products). You can demonstrate this easily by putting a good legacy tube amp (such as a Dynaco ST70) on the bench test equipment and compare its power output at 15KHz with that of a solid state amp. You’ll see they are both flat.

Obviously the seemingly audible difference in high frequency energy isn’t due to a frequency response error. Its due to the different way they both make distortion. 

However this is a conversation about tube/solid state phono sections, not power amps. 

@atmasphere Thank you for the technical explanation.  I am always open to an opportunity to learn more about the engineering principles that affect sound quality, especially from an industry expert.  I was speaking in broad generalities of my perception of the sound of valve designs vs solid state designs and not in terms of absolute measurement of frequency response.   I find measurements important design verification and validation criteria but not always directly perceived sound qualities.  So, if I understand you, and again speaking in very general terms, tubes trend towards lower order (even order) harmonic distortion which is perceived as warmth and richness by some audiophiles and solid state has more higher order  (odd order) harmonic distortion which is perceived as a harsh, clinical or dry sound by some audiophiles.  This is not an absolute measurement of frequency response and valves do not attenuate high frequencies absolutely compared to solid state, but rather it is the perception of high frequencies based on the bias of how the circuit generates or handles distortion.  Do I understand you and the principle correctly?  
 

I originally stated there is no right or wrong and I respect the sound of high quality valve electronics.  As an example, I remember distinctly being blown off my feet by a demonstration of Maggie 20s when they first came out driven by top of the line ARC electronics and by SOTA Sapphire/Gram/Koetsu combination front end - so rich, dense, dimensional, holographic, and true to timbre.   This experience is engrained in my mind for life. However, I have always gravitated to the clarity and extension of solid state, and the ability to command the low efficiency and difficult load speakers I have owned.  
 

I find this conversation fascinating and I should be in a position to offer meaningful insight.  In my main system, located in Florida, the phono stage is a Conrad Johnson ART Phono.  In my second system, located in New Hampshire, the phono stage is a PS Audio Stellar.  Tube vs. solid state.  I have only a vague idea of how they compare.  Both are quite good, but they are in very different systems, different rooms, different expectations.  When the Stellar was first purchased it was delivered to Florida, so I did very briefly plug it in, but that was more to ensure that it was OK than anything else.  As I recall, though, it did not compare well to the CJ, but I didn't expect it to.  $3K vs, $28K is not a level playing field.  When the new PS Audio phono stage comes out I intend to try it and perhaps compare it to the CJ.  That might be an interesting comparison.

@larsman Three ways.  First: Personal experience.  I have a Leica and a Cannon.  No comparison.  Second, I have a friend who is a professional photographer.   He has a Leicas and Nikons.  No comparison.  Third, no direct experience with Hasselblad, but have seen the quality of the photographs they produce.  
 

No, if you show me a photograph I will not be able to tell you the brand, but I will be able to tell you if it’s L/H or C/N by the clarity, dimensionality, color and image density.  Action photography or dynamic fieldwork is simply easier with C/N.  Static or artistic photography with L/H produces better quality.  This is not to say L/H are bad in dynamic conditions, just harder to use.  

 So, if I understand you, and again speaking in very general terms, tubes trend towards lower order (even order) harmonic distortion which is perceived as warmth and richness by some audiophiles and solid state has more higher order  (odd order) harmonic distortion which is perceived as a harsh, clinical or dry sound by some audiophiles

@jsalerno277 Not exactly. The third harmonic is also musical so when tubes are involved we’re not talking about just even orders. Conversely the higher orders, even included, are generated by both kinds of amps. Tubes actually make more higher ordered harmonics (even and odd) than solid state does but they mask them effectively. so:

This is not an absolute measurement of frequency response and valves do not attenuate high frequencies absolutely compared to solid state, but rather it is the perception of high frequencies based on the bias of how the circuit generates or handles distortion.

This part also not exactly. Its how the ear perceives distortion; the 2nd and 3rd contribute to warmth; the 5th and above contribute to brightness and harshness. This happens because the ear assigns tonality to harmonics which is how we can tell musical instruments apart, and also because the ear uses higher ordered harmonics to sense sound pressure (which is easily demonstrated with simple test equipment). Because it has about a 120dB range, it has to be pretty sensitive!

However, I have always gravitated to the clarity and extension of solid state, and the ability to command the low efficiency and difficult load speakers I have owned.  

Actually all amps, tube, solid state or class D, benefit from working with speakers that are easier to drive as they will make less distortion and so be more transparent (and often not as harsh, especially at higher volume). 

Some of the distortion comments here apply to phono sections BTW, just to keep things on topic.

I appreciate tube phono sections (if they are done right) as they don’t sacrifice clarity and extension as you mentioned above. But solid state has come a long ways in the last 50 years so for me what it comes down to is whether the designer sorted out how to prevent the RFI from messing with the input circuit of the phono section, because I don’t like ticks and pops (if this make no sense read my first post in this thread).