Source of Fremer's "1 arc second" claim?


In the latest TAS April 2025, page 34, Fremer reviews some Technics TT, and repeats his claim that "listeners in blind tests could hear arc second speed shifts". where one revolution ~1.3 million arc seconds. Anybody have any idea where this is coming from?

Basic math will make you wonder whether any listener can hear a difference between chamber a' = 440.00000 Hz and 440.00004 Hz, rounding the 1.3M to an even 1M. When tuning my violins, I can hear 2–3 cent difference, where 800 cents = 1 octave = doubling of frequency. At 2 cents, that is over 1 full Herz difference. Even playing a cord with tones at 1 Hz difference will result in an oscillation at 1 Hz, i.e. peak to peak 1 second. For easy math, assume even a 0.00005 difference, which would lead to an oscillation with frequency of 20,000 seconds = 33 minutes. Good luck hearing that. 

"Golden Ears" being able to hear ten times better than a normal human, why not. But 20K better? We are off by several orders of magnitude. Maybe I don't understand that he is talking about, but I consider it complete BS.

Maybe it has to do with consistency (accuracy vs. precision), but then the a different unit needs to be used that includes time in the denominator. But even then the math/physics don't add up.

If anybody can provide any insights, LMK. Thanks!

The alternative is rather unflattering for Mr. Fremer.

oberoniaomnia

Mr Fremer in his recent review of the new Wilson Benesch turntable could not hear any difference when its vibration reduction base was or wasn't working. "Late breaking news: The day I completed the guts of this review, a leak developed in the ThorLabs air-suspension system somewhere inside the Alpha Drive unit. I could hear the hissing and the pump, which I never heard over the four months, began to cycle. The cure for now was to shut it down and run the table unsuspended, but honestly, in my concrete-floor situation I didn’t hear a difference." It seems that  MrFremer's golden ears are somewhat tarnished.

Guys

I think that we need to cut MF some slack.  In my conversation with him, I said something to the effect that a change in controller motor command in the region of one arc second resulted in an audible change in the sound. While you could argue that there is a difference in changing the speed by the equivalent of one arc second per revolution to changing the speed sensor averaging by one arc second, which is of course true.... The fact remains that we heard a difference by making a change that is microscopic. This was my key point.

In this hobby, I think that we are too fast to ridicule. We are all, I hope, striving to achieve excellence of sound in our homes. It is not a competition. Why can't we accept that and considering the big picture, pardon semantic errors that don't really matter. 

Cheers. 

Yoyo, It seems you are insisting there must have been a difference that would be clearly evident to keen audiophile ears, when MF had to listen to the Wilson Benesch TT without the ThorLabs base.  How can you possibly know that unless you were at his home, in his room, at the right times?  A poured concrete basement floor is very inert without help from an air suspended base between it and a TT.

@lewm. A poured concrete floor isn't that inert at all - ask laboratories that use electron microscopes. In any event, isolation bases are there to isolate from airborne vibrations as well as those coming through the floor. And a pair of XVX's will produce both.

All of the EMs at the National Institutes of Health are in the basements of the various buildings that house them. The one in our building was not further stabilized by any sort of air suspension. Yet it was stable enough to permit visualization of subviral particles. Three of my friends collaborated to identify Hepatitis A virus on that ’scope. I will grant you that the building was built during the Cold War and designed to sustain an atomic blast.  The walls throughout the 3 story building were 2 to 3 feet thick.  So probably the basement floor was sitting on many feet of poured concrete. Nevertheless, I take issue with the notion that even a typical poured concrete basement floor "isn’t that inert at all".  We are talking about playing a record, not running an EM lab. And there are no train or truck routes through most neighborhoods we affluent audiophiles inhabit.