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Bidat vs Perfect Wave vs Weiss and others

This is thread I started a while ago and promised in February i would start doing some real world comparative testing using the Bidat (Plus Mod) as the ref. The units under test are to include in no specific order the MSB Platinum Dac, the Weiss Minervera and the Playback Design player. I posted this under the follow-up of the original thread and it is there is you do a search under Digital for "ps audio perfect". I can't understand why it did not 'promote' to the top of the digital section as it did in the past whenever there was a new contribution, so I have started a new related thread with the first entry of my fun (and I hope edifying comparative experiences).
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Ok, I just got a broken in Weiss Minerva (several hundred hours at least). It has been in my system burning in for about 18 hours (18 hours since arriving in my home, time to come to thermal equilibrium). I have done some comparative listening to the Museatex Dcc-1 (a rarely known digital preamp 19 bit dual differential type) using glass Tos on both and then glass on the DCC1 vs a very expensive (can't name it yet as the manufacturer has not released it...sorry :( ) Firewire on the Weiss. I have a Mac Mini (2007 model) 2.0 ghz Core2Duo with 4Gig of ram running Leopard (although this model can only see 3.01 gig of that (I used 4gig as the memory transfer is optimized when the mem modules are the same). I also have a 1TB NAS (all over wifi). I am of course going to reserve final judement until a bit later.

I will be comparing the Museatex Bidat with the Plus Mod later this weekend. As a teaser, I will go on record and say that honestly at this point I don't agree with the stellar reviews concerning the Weiss Minerva.

It is resolute, almost technicolor but just to give you a short glimpse of what I am hearing, I could imagine a well healed vinyl person listening to Holly Cole on vinyl and then listening to the Weiss (playing the same in CD format) and saying "this is why I will never leave vinyl". Now that may sound harsh, but this is a hobby and I don't have a dog in the race, I am just reporting my ears findings.

I listened to a few high resolution files 176.4/24 and 96/24 but what I heard was a really clear highly resolved soul-less rendition of the music. It never ever made me smile or relax into the music the way the DCC-1/Bidat or even my former (when I actually spun cd's...wow time flies) stellar Dynavox Dynastation 2 (the finest CD player I have ever heard).

In a nutshell (at this point) it just sounds like digital and that aint good in my camp because I am not forgetting about the gear and just listening to the music. I don't like syrupy or dark, I have heard plenty of players try to use that trick to sound musical. No, I look for something that is more elusive and few their be that find that magical combination when forging through the nether regions of the digital domain. I will continue listening to see if the Weiss surprises me :)

More to come...
audiofun
tbg
5,263 posts
 
I just noticed this thread. All that I can say is that my experiences are greatly at odds with what has been said here. Initially, I just used the Minerva driven by several transports and a music server. With the exception of using it with the Oppo 83 as a transport, I was quite impressed with the sound. This was primarily the width and depth of the soundstage as well as the bass. After about two weeks, I was even more impressed as the topend was more extended and sweet.

It had always been my intent to use the Minerva with a Mac server using Amarra and Firewire. The Mac has a USB output along with the Firewire 800 output, but the Minerva has no USB input. I had heard such a setup prior to buy all of this and was amazed at what I heard. When I finally got everything together and waited about a week, I would flat out say nothing in my experience with digital sources even approaches what I am hearing.

I have Shindo Labs vinyl front end and love it. The new digital front end does not sound like vinyl, it sounds like master tapes. There are several conditions, however. First, at least in my system, the Minerva at it full output overloads the line input. I find that two pushes on the Minerva down volume, while still pretty hot, works best. Second, I think the use of Firewire is essential. Unfortunately, I cannot really test this, but with my S/P DIF sources, I never got what I hear with the Mac, firewire source. Third, the Minerva and the Mac are very sensitive to power conditioning and to vibration. My mac using the trickle charger when plugged into the Synergistic Research PowerCell 10SE improved so dramatically, that I had to go back several times to make myself confident of what I was hearing.

I have never heard the Museatex Bidat DAC, but did long ago have the EMM dac. I have heard the AMR 777 and really could not stand it. The best dacs I have heard have been the input on the Lindemann 820S, the Exemplar Xindak Dac 5, and the AA tube dac.

All of this once again, suggests that component's sound depends on what is in the system and what ones tastes are. Given past experiences I expect that the Weiss Minerva will be soon displaced by another dac. Some say the new Weiss Dac 202 will do this, but I have yet to hear a production version.
audiofun OP
799 posts
 
Tbg: Mileage does vary so to speak. I did as mentioned use a Firewire (Entreq) connector and my beloved glass TOS and the sound was nearly identical and I was not moved at all by either. To me as stated above the sound was crystal clear but totally DEVOID of any type of musicality (I know that is a loaded word but I think experienced audiophiles know exactly to what I am referring)...it is kinda like the famous quote from a U.S. Judge..."I may not be able to define pornography but I know it when I see it:)

I had at my disposal the Karan preamplifier and it certainly was not over-driven although I did not check the Minerva for the updates that allow you to adjust the output voltage.

I do not agree that "All of this once again, suggests that component's sound depends on what is in the system and what ones tastes are." ... I agree with the second half (you wrote) "and what ones tastes are."

I do not like using other devices as tone controls and it was interesting to me that when the dealer found that I did not like the Minerva at all he asked me (mind you without my claiming it was sterile) if i had tubes in my system anywhere (my answer was no). His reply was that's why i could not handle the sterility of the Minerva...he has tubes in his system.

The AMR 777 I heard while not as good as the Bidat (Plus mods) or the AMR77 certainly made no bones of putting the Minerva to rest. The Bidat and the EMM Labs gear do not sound the same, so I would not consider hearing the EMM Dacs (not saying you do) a basis for imagining what the Bidat is capable of :)

I have owned my Mac Mini since 2007 and perhaps it is because of where I live but I have not found it to be over critical of power at all, but then I do live across the street from a Mains Power Transformer... I know this because it blew up one night after being hit by lightning. Far as vibration control I use a NAS which has my own home brew of vibrational control employed thus my macs internal HDD is not typically spinning when I am playing my music.

The net net is: The AMR 777 sounded very very very good, the Bidat and AMR 77 sounded Fantastic and even my DCC-1 acquitted itself quite nicely...the Minerva is just not for me and is going back in the morning.

But I am fully aware that some of us listen for different things.
tbg
5,263 posts
 
Audiofun, as I implied, my experiences are entirely contrary. I still maintain that minor system differences make a world of difference and tastes certainly differ. I have never heard the realism I hear with the Mac/Amarra/Firewire/Minerva. I am not interested in something that sounds musical, my goal is realism. Oh, I have no tubes in my system at present. I don't think I have ever even seen a Bidat.
audiofun OP
799 posts
 
Tbg: I want to clarify and agree that system changes can obviously make a difference in the sound of a product. What I meant to convey was that all items used in the comparison were identical....PC's/ interconnect /digital cables...etc, thus the only variable was the DAC itself :) Working with a very neutral sounding system and with ONE variable being interchanged I was very clearly able to determine what the dacs were doing.

When I go and listen to Patricia Barber or Keb Mo...etc, live (at a venue) it does in fact sound musical to me. So I do in fact equate realism with musicality. I have been in the hobby since 1997 (this sickness was imparted to me by my uncle) and I can tell you, if it aint musical I aint listening :)

Regards
audiofun OP
799 posts
 
I have never understood audiophiles claiming not to listen for musicality but rather realism...I have always been of the school of thought that music should sound musical (hence real)... Anything else sounds like an oxymoron (or a lot of bad noise), at least to me.

If live events didn't move me emotionally (something I ABSOLUTELY equate with musicality) I would never go to another live event.

I think we both agree that different people listen for different things. To my ears the Minerva is HiFi-ish to the nth degree and this is why it is a great thing for all of us that we have sooooooo many choices.
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