Radical toe in once more

I find that I can use my listener chair as a volume control. Moving it backwards means less volume. It also means that I move back some seats in the listener hall, or the sound space of the recording. If I move my chair towards the speakers, I feel more like I am sitting in the front seat section, besides the greater volume. This is with the radical toe-in of the speakers. The effect is similar but weaker with conventional toe-in.

The listening chair position is also a kind of tone control. The closer I sit to the central axis of the direct sound the greater is the perceived output of the treble. This is easy to hear. The whole speaker becomes too beamy, insistent, in your face. I guess this is why most speaker manufacturers advice NOT sitting in the crosspoint. But adjust with toe-in.

When I do some gym, between the speakers, with my ears just few feet in front, they almost sound like my best headphones. They change character a lot, depending on position.

FWIW, I think you would be wise(r) to follow Duke’s recommendations. He knows his speakers and their proper set up. He takes it seriously. I’ve been doing crossed axis’ for some years and I was tickled when I saw him using/recommending this set up. BTW, I experience no difficulty in reproducing an excellent soundstage. If its on the recording I get it! I see a lot of folks who think crossed axis’ compromise the sound stage. What I think they hear are 1st reflection points and think that is part of a normal sound stage. They think in-phase sound outside of the speaker edges is a norm and if they don’t hear it something with there stuff or set up is wrong. Not so, it is right! All one should hear outside the edges of their speakers is out of phase sound and to quote a test record producer "and it should come from all about the room". Note that Duke also has recommendations regarding the necessary distance of your speakers from a reflecting surface. Follow them! You’ll get much greater clarity. Having fun yet? :-)

Thanks @newbee. Very interesting. I have the greatest respect for Duke at Audiokinesis, the designer of my speakers, who has been extremely supportive. And yes, I am now back to radical toe-in. I thought this was mainly a fix for small rooms, but obviously it is more than that. I will check out your theory of 1st reflection indoctrination / habituation. May well be the case among some of my "conventional is best" audio friends. And your out of phase "from all about the room" advice.

Maybe I should even give my LCS "effect" speakers a new try. Now that I am back to radical. The LCS - Late Ceiling Splash - is the forerunner of what Audiokinesis now calls Space Generator. It is kind of proto-Atmos, all in the analog domain. It didn’t quite work with my main speakers, but that was (mainly) with conventional toe-in. I’ll give it a try.

Having fun? You bet. I love this aspect of our hobby, how to improve things for low cost, and learn more about sound along the way.

One question - necessary distance of speakers from reflecting surface - advice from Duke - I have forgotten, or maybe not read it, can you repeat? I measured the distance from the middle of my front firing drivers to the side wall - almost 6 foot. The main sidewall reflection area is maybe 9-10 foot away from the drivers and a further 8 foot away from the sweet spot. I've tried some damping in this area, but never noted much improvement, even with conventional toe-in. Testing with more damping, and sometimes more dispersion, has been like, "well maybe, but it is quite ok as is". I've used DAAD columns with adjustable absorption and diffusion, plus home tweaks like a matress up the wall. Note that this is also a living room, not a designated music room. Compromises along the way.

A main finding is that the speakers were designed with this in mind. The idea is that you don't need digital sound correction if you get the speaker and room matching right. You can do it in the analog domain, and that usually works better than digital correction (Audiokinesis has proved this especially through the Swarm distributed subs concept, a repeat prize winner from TAS and others). A large room is a big benefit, the Dream Makers need room to do their work. I see a lot of setups with speakers where the room is clearly too narrow to allow the speakers to breathe, sideways as well as to the back wall.

In my case, with a good room and speaker match, musical images become dramatic and engaging. Especially with top quality analog recordings, without any digital conversion. I also play digital, including DSD double speed recordings of my best albums. Some say you cannot hear any difference from the analog original. Well, I can, in my system. Even if the digital now sounds very good, and closer to the original. 

Six feet is good! Do I assume correctly that they are also six feet forward of the wall behind them (front wall)? If so you're really good. FWIW this distance allows separation of the reflected  and the direct signal which give you a clearer sound of both.  

Yes you are correct, they have ample space behind them. I measured: 6,5 foot from the middle of the front drivers to the wall behind them, 5,5 from the back drivers. I know that they may sound even a bit better half a foot or so more out from the wall, but we have some living room compromises...