I don't want to beat a dead horse but I'm bugged.


I just can't clear my head of this. I don't want to start a measurements vs listening war and I'd appreciate it if you guys don't, but I bought a Rogue Sphinx V3 as some of you may remember and have been enjoying it quite a bit. So, I head over to AVS and read Amir's review and he just rips it apart. But that's OK, measurements are measurements, that is not what bugs me. I learned in the early 70s that distortion numbers, etc, may not be that important to me. Then I read that he didn't even bother listening to the darn thing. That is what really bugs me. If something measures so poorly, wouldn't you want to correlate the measurements with what you hear? Do people still buy gear on measurements alone? I learned that can be a big mistake. I just don't get it, never have. Can anybody provide some insight to why some people are stuck on audio measurements? Help me package that so I can at least understand what they are thinking without dismissing them completely as a bunch of mislead sheep. 

128x128russ69

In acoustic and psycho-acoustic no scientist use the term "color" in the same pejorative way, like some subjective EXTERNAL quality added to a sound which must be eliminated because the sound must be only "accurate"...This is completely wrong...

Like just said atmasphere: instruments before the recording own their own timbre or colors...A good audio system must be able to CONVEY that and our room acoustic must TRANSLATE that for our ears pleasures...

"accurate" in electronic design is not "accurate" in acoustic , but yes they are related through the human ears evaluation with psycho-acoustic science and listening experiments taking into account what we know about hearing ...

 

This way to speak about colors in a dismissive way by some, has NO MEANING in acoustic... Why?

Because what is color in acoustic is described as a complex acoustic phenomena which is "timbre" tonal playing perception...

Colors could be unbalanced and perceived like a an indesirable artefact but it is not this way that this UNBALANCED color effect must be characterize not like something EXTERNAL to be eliminated but like something pointing to a design flaw in the gear or to an acoustic room problem, then pointing an INTERNAL problem,  then colors are the  symptom not the disease itself... ...

 

 

"Accurate" here in acoustic if we speak of timbre accuracy implicate at least 5 characteristics:

 

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  1. Range between tonal and noiselike character
  2. Spectral envelope
  3. Time envelope in terms of rise, duration, and decay (ADSR, which stands for "attack, decay, sustain, release")
  4. Changes both of spectral envelope (formant-glide) and fundamental frequency (micro-intonation)
  5. Prefix, or onset of a sound, quite dissimilar to the ensuing lasting vibration »

Observe that these characteristics to be relatively "accurately" perceived , because there is no absolute in timbre perception , it is a relative acoustic phenomenon, implied also ANOTHER dimensions than only and mainly electronical measures of components and their potential to relay information or/ and affect it at the same time....This perception of colored tone playing timbre is also essentially a speakers/room acoustic and psycho-acoustic phenomenon...

 

 

Then dismissing colors as an added deceiving illusion or an indesirable artefact

is thowing the baby with the muddy waters...

Audio electronics AT THE END and TO BEGIN WITH is explained by acoustic not the reverse...Why? because we dont understand right now all there is in the ears/brain relation...

 

 

If we reach a point where sound quality can be accurately predicted by measurement I’d have zero resistance or issue with it. My point is acknowledging we are not remotely close to doing that now.

Currently used measuring techniques seemingly can’t hold a candle compared to the extraordinary capabilities of the human ear-brain axis processing pathways (Thank you @mahgister ).

You can use cheap off the shelf Op-amps to allow any mass produced entry level DAC to measure quite well and yet sound utterly underwhelming (Like crap).

AFAIK we're there already. Its just that for the most part we never see the important measurements; quite often they simply aren't made! This gives rise to the idea that we don't have the technology to do it.

The trick with opamps is to not use too much gain! The best of them are not good for about 20dB before you get into trouble with GBP. If a designer ignores the impact of that you get into colorations- even though it 'measures well'; but I suspect if the full battery of measurements were applied the problems would turn up easily enough!

@atmasphere The problem here might be the terms used, since ’coloration’ is usually a bad thing in the context of getting as close to the musical event as is possible. But instruments have tone ’color’; one must be careful to not conflate the two ideas!

Live instruments do indeed have "tone color". Some audio components are much better at preserving this natural characteristic. Some components do not convey these essential qualities and instead present an alternative thinner, lean, bleached and sterile/lifeless presentation. False coloration can move in either direction of the spectrum.

In recent weeks I had the pleasure of hearing a live un-miked cello and a week later a baritone saxaphonist.  Pure full tone,richness and harmonics, just beautiful sound. Live and natural. I don’t want audio components that dilute and present a strip down low fat/calorie version. I’d like to get as natural a sound as is reasonably within my means. Live acoustic instruments have plenty of "tone" and "color", undeniably so.

Charles

we can say that we do not want the playback system to be supplying further changes to the recording. Holmz

I don't think this gets covered enough.  It is nice have a baseline, and I can understand why people want to be true to original.  Good, bad, or otherwise, it is nice to listen to the music as created by the artist and their team, which the artist signs off on.  Really depends on the music as well.