Hear my Cartridges....🎶

I have been busy of late with other interests.....watches, cars, architecture.Have still found time to listen to music every day.....but not reading Forums 🥱Last week I plugged in a NOS Signet MR 5.0 lc Vintage MM Cartridge which has a Line Contact Nude Stylus on Beryllium Cantilever (for which I have a NOS replacement).After playing around with VTF(1.5Gm) and VTA.....I also adjusted Loading to 40 Ohms and Capacitance to 250uF.I was really impressed with the sound and have spent days debating whether I should risk the heartless Golden-Eared Critics and Adjudicators on this Site 🥴 with a ’comparison’....?
VINTAGE SONY XL-88 LOMC CARTRIDGE
VINTAGE SIGNET MR 5.0 LC MM CARTRIDGE
VINTAGE SIGNET MR 5.0 LC MM CARTRIDGE
VINTAGE SONY XL-88D LOMC CARTRIDGE
Don’t hold back......🙉

Halcro,
Heartless is a bit harsh - we all aspire to great sound and wish it upon all. I'm reading forums to take a break from renovations and politics.

From a quick listen 
XL88 vs Signet - XL88 sounding a little brittle, but compared to the Signet has more accurate presentation of instruments ( Signet sounds coloured like the FR7 ) and better timing through the midrange.

Whilst the Signet initially sounds very nice, very fruity midrange, it loses composure ( timing ) through the upper bass midrange area. To me it sounds very coloured - if it were a movie I would say 50's jive.
The Sony is more even handed, very quick and better timng across the board, more articulate.
In terms of the brittleness with the XL88, unless the VTA  needs tweaking, I think you may be doing it a disservice using the super heavy FR headshell - the Sony is a medium compliance MC. Since you dont like Orsonics, I might suggest you try something like one of the Audiotechnica Technihard head shells - nid weight version - 12-15g if you have one.

XL88D vs Signet - 
I thought XL88 sounded way better on the SAEC, then realised you had switched to XL88D. It was very noticeable the tonal qualities of the XL88D in the SAEC arm are closer to the Signet with a more fullsome midrange
Having said that again the timing and refinement of the Sony XL88D  across the full frequency range shines through to my ears.
Again - the XL88D is a medium compliant cartridge and I think there are gains to be had in using a lighter headshell in the 12-15g range.

Good to see you back in action, Halcro. Hope that you and all here are well.

I agree wholeheartedly with Dover’s comments. I would describe what I hear somewhat differently, but the gist of it all is the same.

First and in full disclosure, as you may remember I have never been a great fan of AT/Signet cartridges. For years, I have tried to get truly satisfactory sound from, among other AT MM’s, my sample of the vaunted ATML170OCC and I have always been left dissatisfied. I bring this up because what I always hear from the ATML170 is precisely what I hear from the Signet on the Ellington (a recording I know well).

“Colored” means different things to different folks. I believe I understand what Dover means when he describes the Signet as “colored”. I would actually describe the sound as lacking in color...the richness and variety of natural tonal color that the sound of acoustic instruments have. I hear that colorless sound as having a pervasive “gray” cast that homogenizes the distinctive sound of instruments. “Colored” in gray. Timbral blandness. Btw, I hear a similar quality from most Shure cartridges that I have tried.

On the plus side. in spite of this tonal blandness, there is a welcome fullness in the midrange. I say welcome because the Sony sounds a little lean through the midrange and upper mids; and when the whole orchestra is playing, bordering on slight harshness (but not quite). With the Sony the clarinet’s naturally plush mid register sounds too lean, while with the Signet sounds more correct in this respect. However, I suspect that, just as with the sound of the flute heard here, the upper register of the clarinet would sound lacking in harmonics. The flute sounds too covered with the Signet; little sense of the sound of metal (silver). The Signet sounds lacking in air and the upper partials of the timbre of individual instruments. In general, the distinctive tones of the winds is much easier to recognize with the Sony; in spite of the perceived high frequency leanness. While there is seldom a way to confirm this, the Sony gives me a very strong sense that what I am hearing is what is actually on the recording and not the inherent sound of the cartridge. This may very well account for the “brittleness” that Dover hears, and what I hear as leanness through the upper mids. I believe this is a result of the mics and other recording equipment used. I hear this same quality playing this recording on my own system.

Even more so than the tonal issues the most important difference for me is with, and what Dover points out, the “timing”. To me, with the Signet just as with my ATML170 there is a perception that the performance is actually a little bit slower than with the Sony. There is a noticeable decrease in the wonderful propulsive and forward moving feeling of the rhythm section’s playing that one hears clearly with the Sony. With the Signet the music simply doesn’t move the same way; sounds almost static by comparison.

Btw, this example gave the best sense of “stereo” of any of your prior examples, Halcro. Much more clear left to right panning of instruments, whereas prior examples tended to mostly sound almost as in mono.

I won’t comment on the Bela Fleck track because I find too much of a volume inbalance between the two examples to make a fair judgment.

I suspect that in my all tube system, mounted on my ET2, the Sony would a no brainer.

Thanks, as always, Halcro and best to all.

Thank you Frogman.....
And thank you to Dover and you for demonstrating your rare hearing abilities for the umpteenth time....
Many people (most) do not credit these YouTube videos with the gravitas they deserve because they are unable to hear the details that you and Dover so obviously do.

The main point I have learned from initiating this Thread, is that just because I can't hear something....may not mean it doesn't exist?
For over 40 years of High End involvement, I have naturally believed that I hear as well as (or better than) most others.
I have demonstrated this on many occasions in the past with friends and HiFi dealers, pointing out faults and subtleties in various systems which are obvious to me but not to them.....
This has led me to make inaccurate claims based on my own hearing abilities such as:-

• People can't consistently discern MM cartridges from MCs in  controlled blind listening tests

Frogman and Dover have proved me wrong!
But their hearing abilities are not the 'norm'.
They are exceedingly rare and thus expose three alarming facts in this hobby:-

• How can we trust (or rate) all the various opinions promoted on the Internet by 'strangers' whose hearing abilities are unknown?
• How can we trust (or rate) all the various opinions espoused by HiFi journalists and Reviewers whose hearing abilities are unknown?
• How vulnerable are we consumers, to the fact that all the designers of HiFi equipment may not be blessed by the unique hearing abilities of Frogman and Dover?

This last point is disturbing.....🧐
If cartridges, tonearms, turntables, cables, phono-amps, preamps, amplifiers, speakers and all the aftermarket tweaks designed and sold today....are designed by humans whose hearing abilities are largely in question...this industry appears flawed.

That's the bad news....
The good news is that despite the fact that my hearing is not the equal of those naturally gifted individuals like Frogman and Dover.....I can still happily listen to those cartridges I might own, whose qualities would not pass muster with the 'elites' 🤗

Regards and good health and happy listening to all.
Thanks for teaching me heaps.....
Halcro

How can we trust (or rate) all the various opinions espoused by HiFi journalists and Reviewers whose hearing abilities are unknown?

Many years ago at a show in London, where they were demoing an Aragon system, I crossed paths with one Ken Kessler. I asked him how could anyone like that sound as it was rolled off, plodding, and simply dull. His reply knocked me. "That's the way music is supposed to sound."