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Hear my Cartridges....🎶

Many Forums have a 'Show your Turntables' Thread or 'Show your Cartridges' Thread but that's just 'eye-candy'.... These days, it's possible to see and HEAR your turntables/arms and cartridges via YouTube videos.
Peter Breuninger does it on his AV Showrooms Site and Michael Fremer does it with high-res digital files made from his analogue front ends.
Now Fremer claims that the 'sound' on his high-res digital files captures the complex, ephemeral nuances and differences that he hears directly from the analogue equipment in his room.
That may well be....when he plays it through the rest of his high-end setup 😎
But when I play his files through my humble iMac speakers or even worse.....my iPad speakers.....they sound no more convincing than the YouTube videos produced by Breuninger.
Of course YouTube videos struggle to capture 'soundstage' (side to side and front to back) and obviously can't reproduce the effects of the lowest octaves out of subwoofers.....but.....they can sometimes give a reasonably accurate IMPRESSION of the overall sound of a system.

With that in mind.....see if any of you can distinguish the differences between some of my vintage (and modern) cartridges.
VICTOR X1
This cartridge is the pinnacle of the Victor MM designs and has a Shibata stylus on a beryllium cantilever. Almost impossible to find these days with its original Victor stylus assembly but if you are lucky enough to do so.....be prepared to pay over US$1000.....🤪
VICTOR 4MD-X1
This cartridge is down the ladder from the X1 but still has a Shibata stylus (don't know if the cantilever is beryllium?)
This cartridge was designed for 4-Channel reproduction and so has a wide frequency response 10Hz-60KHz.
Easier to find than the X1 but a lot cheaper (I got this one for US$130).
AUDIO TECHNICA AT ML180 OCC
Top of the line MM cartridge from Audio Technica with Microline Stylus on Gold-Plated Boron Tube cantilever.
Expensive if you can find one....think US$1000.

I will be interested if people can hear any differences in these three vintage MM cartridges....
Then I might post some vintage MMs against vintage and MODERN LOMC cartridges.....🤗
128x128halcro
halcro's avatar
halcro OP
2,664 posts
 
Whilst I haven't given up hope that Frogman will find the time to write his verdict on the Denon vs Shure 'Shootout'.....here are two videos which don't need any comparisons 🤩
Before I started this Thread.....I never did direct cartridge comparisons nor 'Shootouts' 😃
Out of the 80+ cartridges I have directly heard in my system.....it has been relatively easy for me to hear (almost) instantly which ones 'did it👍 and which 'didn't'👎
Which ones had the 'Magic'🎉 and which didn't 💣
That's why I'm amazed (and sometimes bewildered) by Frogman's exacting analyses and insights.
Nevertheless.....I can still happily listen to any one of my 40+ 'selected' cartridges without consciously bewailing its deficiencies or comparing it to my others.
And that's the main point I'm trying to make with this Thread......
There are soooo many cartridges out there that can truly perform 'Magic' (in a GOOD arm) that I don't believe anyone needs to spend the outrageous sums currently being asked for the 'Uber' High-End cartridges.
I don't care if it's MM, MI, or MC.....there are hundreds of 'vintage' ones available every day for less than $1,000 that I've proven, can sound better than many current models selling for up to ten times more.
And I've heard for myself....that with MM cartridges in particular, no modern ones can match the quality and 'Magic' created by the engineers working in 'The Golden Age' of analogue (70s-80s).
Just pick a vintage cartridge of any type, and listen to it on various musical genres. If you really like it.....relax and enjoy.
How many 'degrees' of 'goodness' does one need.

As an example....here is a vintage Sony XL-88 LOMC cartridge from my collection, which is NOT amongst my top 10 favourites.
However, that doesn't prevent me from enjoying it immensely 🤗

SONY XL-88 LOMC Cartridge

SONY XL-88 LOMC Cartridge 
noromance's avatar
noromance
9,404 posts
 
Tricky!
lewm
12,456 posts
 
I love reading this thread, because you guys are so nice to each other, and the tone is so genteel.  Keep it up. While you were talking about single malt scotch, I was reminded of my dear friend who is also an Aussie.  Three of us, my friend Ian from Melbourne and another friend who is also a retired scientist from my area here in Washington, DC, did a road trip through the American south last fall and had a great time.  During that trip, we sampled (ex-Australia) "Sullivans Cove", the one that was voted world's best on one or two occasions.  Have you tasted that one, Henry? I thought it was very good but not hands down better than, say, 25-year old Macallam's.

I might note here that the Copernican Theory as expounded by Henry was never about whether the tonearm was more or less important than the turntable; it was about outboard arm pods vs mounting the arm rigidly to the turntable.  In the end, I thought we all agreed that a massive pod sitting on the same shelf with the turntable (a la Henry's set up) works about as well as a rigid link.  Over the course of time and bluster, Henry and I moved off our original intransigent and opposing positions and found some middle ground.
halcro's avatar
halcro OP
2,664 posts
 
I didn't know you were a 'Lurker' Lew...?😃
It would be nice to hear your thoughts on some of the comparisons?
It would also be great to hear from Dover on a more regular basis...?
He seems to have as refined a 'hearing' as Frogman 🧐

Funny you should mention 'Sullivans Cove' single malt whiskey....
At the 2017 Munich HES....Dietrich Brakemeier (Dertonarm) of ACOUSTICAL SYSTEMS kindly provided me with a Press Pass which allowed me free entry every day, but more importantly....access the day before the Show was opened to the public 😝
To thank him for this, before I left Sydney, I asked him if I could bring him anything from 'Down Under' and he requested a bottle of 'Sullivans Cove'.
Never having heard of it myself, I chased around all the bottle shops, even the speciality 'Whiskey Only' stores....and not one of them had a bottle.
So I Emailed the makers in Tasmania who informed me that 99% of all their production was exported and if I wanted a bottle, it would take two weeks and cost $650.....😱
I took Dietrich a nice bottle of Aussie red wine instead 🤗
So the answer to your question Lew...is 'no'....I haven't tasted 'Sullivans Cove' and don't expect to.....🤯
halcro's avatar
halcro OP
2,664 posts
 
Just a word about the 'Copernican Theory' Lew......
You're right that it wasn't about whether the tonearm was more important than the turntable.....
What I proposed, was that the 'Platter' revolved around the 'Tonearm' 🤔
In other words...the Tonearm needed to be 'anchored' to a rigid, immovable base, disconnected from the noises and movements of the motor/s, platter and plinth.
Very much like the arm of the CUTTING LATHE which is treated like 'The Sun' with the 'Earth' (the Platter) very much secondary to the 'Sun'.
Your contention (and that of some other erstwhile contributors to that Thread) was that unless the Tonearm was rigidly CONNECTED directly to the platter bearing....it was impossible to maintain the physical relationship (Spindle to Pivot distance) or prevent differential movement between Platter and Arm.
Here is a video of MARK DOEHMANN designer of the famous Continuum Caliburn and Criterion Turntables and also the Doehmann Helix 1 and Helix 2 Turntables.
Listen at the 33 second mark of the video where he emphasises the signal defining difference between his turntables and all others.....
The 'disconnection' of the armboard from the platter bearing, motor/s and chassis.
This man is a Turntable and Tonearm Designer....
He is NOT an amplifier or cartridge designer 😝, nor a 'punter' like the rest of us, free to speculate and 'invent' theories without ever having to prove ourselves...?
In any case....as far as I know....I'm the only one amongst all the 'naysayers' who actually has a turntable with outboard armpods directly alongside a conventional one without.....and I can hear the differences.
Hopefully you may also be able to, via the Youtube Videos?
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