Vintage DD turntables. Are we living dangerously?


I have just acquired a 32 year old JVC/Victor TT-101 DD turntable after having its lesser brother, the TT-81 for the last year.
TT-101
This is one of the great DD designs made at a time when the giant Japanese electronics companies like Technics, Denon, JVC/Victor and Pioneer could pour millions of dollars into 'flagship' models to 'enhance' their lower range models which often sold in the millions.
Because of their complexity however.......if they malfunction.....parts are 'unobtanium'....and they often cannot be repaired.
128x128halcro
Lewm - there is no proof that the Krebs mods reduces the number of error corrections. Krebs provides no evidence that his "mods" reduce the number of error corrections. Krebs cannot provide any testing data to support the claim.
Although you say you cannot imagine anything better, it is worth noting that David Karmeli classes the SP10mk3 that he owns as a toy compared to his reference tables that include the Techdas, EMT 927, Goldmund Reference, American Sound & Thorens Reference. None of these are direct drives.
I share a similar view to DDK as I have heard both the Krebs SP10mk2 and mk3 and they simply do not have the resolution that my Final Audio VTT1 provides.  

 

Dover.

You are quite correct. I do not provide any objective proof that the number of servo error corrections have been reduced by my upgrade. However since I know what the upgrade process entails, it is reasonable to conclude that this is indeed true.

Fortunately most of us do not listen to specifications.

Coincidentally, I  have heard the SP10 Mk2 and MK3 with and without my upgrade :-) I also have heard your Final TT many times. While it is in many ways an engineering tour de force, it is clearly not dynamically speed stable to these ears and I might add to those belonging to others who are close to you. It is interesting that your justified pride of ownership of this machine has deafened you to this quite obvious flaw.  

Halcro has talked about what excellent dynamic speed stability brings to the table ref his TT-101. I agree with him totally.

Now we all put different weighting on the characteristics of a TT, you favour the Final. I have no argument with that, but ALL TTs are significantly flawed. It simply comes down to the flaws that one can live with and those that one cannot.

This hobby is not a competition ( my TT is better than yours)  but a celebration in the joy of listening to music at home.

Richard,
I have owned the Final for 25 years and in that time you have heard it once. I clearly recall your comment at the time which was "amazing".

During that 25 year period I have also had the pleasure of owning many other turntables - various Sotas including Star Vacuum, Well Tempered, Garrard 401and 301 idlers, Pink Triangle, Oracle Delphi’s, Roksan and others. I have just sold my Platine Verdier. I have personally set up many tables including various Goldmunds, VPI’s, Gyrodecks, Aura’s, Mapleknolls, Micro Seikis and others too numerous to list.

I regularly have listening sessions with audiophiles/music lovers, some of whom own Kenwood L07D’s and SP10’s and have no reason to replace the Final. I recently hosted a listening session which included the owner of a Micro Seiki SX5000 loaded with Graham Phantom’s who fully concurs on the relative merits of the above mentioned decks.

As regards "dynamic speed stability", there is a reason your SP10 and Halcros Victor have servos and speed correction - the SP10 and Victor cannot hold speed without the servos running. If you turn the servos and error correction off, neither of these Direct Drive TT’s will run let alone maintain speed.

The previous owner of the Final, Warwick Mickell was an opera lover, played harpsichord & wrote for The Absolute Sound magazine; pitch stability was a key requirement when he set out to select the best possible turntable, cost no object, in Japan, at that time. Warwick benchmarked the Final against the Denon DP100 Direct Drive and many other turntables prior to purchase - it was no contest. 
  
I’m sure there are other great turntables such as those I mentioned in my previous post - the EMT 927, American Sound, Micro Seki’s etc - that can give great musical pleasure.
Dover.
I heard the Final enough times at Warwick's to get a fix on what it did well and what it did not so well. Hearing it at your place only served to confirm this.
re the amazing comment. Under the right circumstances I find my car stereo to be "amazing" . We adjust our expectations based on where we are.

Re speed stability, Your comment re DD TTs needing servos to work is immaterial. It is just a different technology that's all.

I am on record during a conversation with Lewm stating that I could not live with a standard SP10 MK3. (To my ears they have a high frequency jitter speed problem that is just plain irritating, which took me 15 years to tame.) I will now expand that statement to say that I have not heard any standard DD TT that I could live with. So perhaps Warwick and I are almost on the same page.

Could I live  with the Final? 
While I admire what it does well the, to me, obvious dynamic speed problems disqualify it from my bucket list.

As I said, we each make our choices based on our particular biases. I have no beef with anyone preferring a different TT to what I would choose. This diversity alone makes our hobby fascinating.


richardkrebs
I am on record during a conversation with Lewm stating that I could not live with a standard SP10 MK3. (To my ears they have a high frequency jitter speed problem that is just plain irritating, which took me 15 years to tame.) I will now expand that statement to say that I have not heard any standard DD TT that I could live with.
It would appear then that you agree with me now.
It is surprising that you could live with DD turntables for 20 years prior to "taming the jitter". With regards to "taming the jitter" - thats what the digital guys claim each time they release some new algorithms or technology. As I said to Lewm there is no evidence that your lead and glue mods to the SP10 reduce the number of error corrections per unit of time which is what he claimed. You may have slugged the sound but the error correction is still going on.
Servos and error corrections are not irrelevant as you claim - these are micro adjustments to the speed of the motor and platter. This is why you hear "jitter" with all direct drive turntables ( other than yours of course ).