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Capacitor log Mundorf Silver in Oil

I wished I could find a log with information on caps. I have found many saying tremendous improvement etc. but not a detailed account of what the changes have been. I have had the same speakers for many years so am very familiar with them. (25+ years) The speakers are a set of Klipsch Lascala's. They have Alnico magnets in the mids and ceramic woofers and tweeters. The front end is Linn LP12 and Linn pre amp and amp. The speaker wire is 12 gauge and new wire.

I LOVE these speakers around 1 year ago they started to sound like garbage. As many have said they are VERY sensitive to the components before them. They are also showing what I think is the effect of worn out caps.

There are many out here on these boards I know of that are using the Klipsch (heritage) with cheaper Japanese electronics because the speakers are cheap! (for what they can do) One thing I would recommend is give these speakers the best quality musical sources you can afford. There is a LOT to get out of these speakers. My other speakers are Linn speakers at around 4k new with Linn tri-wire (I think about 1k for that) and the Klipsch DESTROY them in my mind. If you like "live feel" there is nothing like them. In fact it shocks me how little speakers have improved in 30 years (or 60 years in the Khorns instance)

In fact I question Linn's theory (that they have proved many times) that the source is the most important in the Hi-Fi chain. Linn's theory is top notch source with lessor rest of gear including speakers trumps expensive speakers with lessor source. I think is right if all things are equal but Klipsch heritage are NOT equal! They make a sound and feel that most either LOVE or hate. (I am in the LOVE camp and other speakers are boring to me)

So here goes and I hope this helps guys looking at caps in the future. Keep in mind Klipsch (heritage Khorns Belle's and Lascala's especially) are likely to show the effects of crossover changes more then most.

1 The caps are 30 years old and
2 the speakers being horn driven make changes 10x times more apparent.

Someone once told me find speakers and components you like THEN start to tweak if needed. Don't tweak something you not in love with. Makes sense to me.

So sound
Record is Let it Be (Beatles)
The voices are hard almost sounds like a worn out stylus.
Treble is very hard. I Me Mine has hard sounding guitars. Symbals sound awful. Everything has a digital vs. analog comparison x50! Paul's voice not as bad as John's and George's. Voices will crack.

different lp
Trumpets sound awful. Tambourine terrible. Bass is not great seems shy (compared to normal) but the bad caps draw soooooo much attention to the broken up mid range and hard highs that are not bright if anything it seems the highs are not working up to snuff. I have went many times to speaker to make sure tweeters are even working.

All in all they sound like crap except these Klipsch have such fantastic dynamics that even when not right they are exciting!

Makes me wonder about the people who do not like them if they are hearing worn out caps and cheap electronics? Then I can see why they do not like them! If I did not know better from 25+ years of ownership that would make sense.

For the new crossover I have chosen Mundorf Silver in Oil from what I have read and can afford. I want a warm not overly detailed sound as Klipsch already has lots of detail and does not need to be "livened up" they need lush smooth sounding caps. Hope I have made the right choice?

When the crossover is in I will do a initial impression on same lp's. Right now it goes from really bad (on what may be worn vinyl) to not as bad but NOT great on great vinyl. (I know the quality of the vinyl because tested on other speakers Linn)

The new caps are Mundorf Silver in Oil and new copper foil inductors are coming. I will at the same time be rewiring the speakers to 12 guage from the lamp cord that PWK put in. PWK was a master at getting very good sound often with crap by today's standards components.

The choice of speakers would be a toss up now depending on what I am listening to. Klipsch vastly more dynamic but if the breaking up of the sound becomes to much to effect enjoyment the Linn would be a better choice on that Lp. If I could I would switch a button back and forth between speakers depending on song and how bad the break-up sound was bothering me.

volleyguy
volleyguy OP
789 posts
 
Sgmlaw

Is not the x202 the same pre-amp section as the famous 400CX2? It is interesting you say the 7591s are beefier it is exactly that I think is why I like them better. Tight defined bottom end. Interesting you say that about the tubes as well as I have told the tech guy who has the x101d not to move any of the miss mash of tubes from where they are as I think it sounds fantastic!
volleyguy OP
789 posts
 
Dave I really liked Tempo's reviews more than Tony's as I found his confusing. When reading Tony's he gets the Duelund right, but not the magnitude. I do think the difference from Mundorf Supreme and Duelund VSF is huge! I think that is what Tempo is saying is the difference is HUGE but 3x may be strange wording. I also agree with Tempo as I found the Silver in Oil tilted the sound upwarded and (for me) I agree with Tempo and see no value in the Silver in Oil. Tony rates every more expensive Mundorf higher and many people I have heard do not like the Silver/Gold?

I wish Tony would come out with some adjusted numbers. I think only the best can be 10/10 and if he rates CAST the best (and I sure can not argue with that) than everything else should be less. I remember thinking a Sonicap would be good from Tony's rating of 8.5 and I think their crap! Tony rates nothing less than a 6 which is like all caps pass. Tempo at least says some are Tier F or whatever and that puts it into perspective. Tony's rating's give one a false sense of what they have.
Just more realistic numbers from Tony would be nice like a CAST at 10 VSF at 9, Supreme 6.5 and Sonicap at 5 and a Solen at 2 then if I read that I would know there was a difference in caps which there is.
sgmlaw
76 posts
 
Some elements of the CX2 topology can be found in the X-202 and C series receivers. But no preamp section in the integrateds and receivers is the same as the CX2 (not even the X-1000). More importantly, none sounds as sweet and musical. The CX2 is the best stereo pre-amp Fisher ever made.

The more important point of all of this is that you should not allow the quest for perfect passives to overshadow the weight of active components and basic circuit topology. The latter has far more impact on the sound than the former. Before I would spend $1-2k on x-over capacitors, I would consider a CX2 implant (if you can even find one) or similar primary or active element system upgrade. Even $300 can buy a mountain of retubing.

Passives are like cables. They can help a good system perform better, but they will not transform a system suffering significant deficiencies elsewhere. And they can mess up what was an effective formula. Witness my earlier comments on the "Solenization" of vintage gear into tonal sterility. That some of your Fishers sounded so good to you on what are common grade passives should underscore that balance (even though they are stuffed full of beautiful Beyschlag carbon films).

Consider them as seasonings on the main dish. But they're not the meal.
volleyguy OP
789 posts
 
Smglaw

I do not know about that on the passive parts the difference is 10x with Duelund from the x101d, to x100st and 500c. The difference in the caps is shocking. The Fishers sound similiar one better than the other but still from the same family. Maybe plastic caps are all similiar but Duelund caps from even Mundorf are the equivalent of going to tubes from SS or more. Duelund is in my opinion the biggest improvement I have ever heard. Like I have said before I wish I had CAST mid range caps that I ordered and not the VSF that came in. It was (at the time $400) and would be well worth every cent and I am cheap!

That being said I would like a Fisher CX2 and if it was 10% as much better than Fisher int as Duelund is over regular caps I will be thrilled!

Every person I have had over hearing these speakers have all had the same comment and that is "that is what caps do!" Everyone is shocked at the difference not one person has ever said I can hardly tell the difference. The difference is so huge that they take time to take it all in. Same reaction all the time was first 30 minutes liked the old caps after that they could not believe what caps can do and were just shocked. One friend just shook his head for an hour in complete disbelief.

I am actually taking the speakers on the road in the spring to a Audio get togther so that other Audio guys can hear them. It is so huge (and Klipsch are big) that I feel it is well worth it for them for me to take them.

I have rolled many kinds of tubes in (from the 5 Fishers I have) and consider that all small potatoes compared to the passive crossover caps. Steen has turned me into a believer, no doubt. I do not think anything as important as the passive speaker crossover parts.
fas948
9 posts
 
I have just recently upgraded the caps on the pre-amp section on my Pathos INPOL-2 with Duelund VSF & the mighty CAST capacitors and I can not begin to describe in words how amazing these capacitors are. If anyone has the budget and space on a component go for the CAST. If you don’t have the budget yet, save save save until you are able get them. Duelund CAST are the very best there is in the world of capacitors (audio signal path).

I am also using a pair of VSF on the output stage of my SCD-1 and the sound is just great. I would like to use the CAST but there is no space available. However I might consider an external setup in the future.

I have been lucky to audition many of the top capacitors in the market (audio note silver, V-Caps, Mundorf silver/gold/oil, etc.) and to my ears the CAST are the very best.

The CAST deliver the most natural sound, after 100 hours on burn-in time they start to show their sound beauty.
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