2. speakers
  3. 1211428524

Capacitor log Mundorf Silver in Oil

I wished I could find a log with information on caps. I have found many saying tremendous improvement etc. but not a detailed account of what the changes have been. I have had the same speakers for many years so am very familiar with them. (25+ years) The speakers are a set of Klipsch Lascala's. They have Alnico magnets in the mids and ceramic woofers and tweeters. The front end is Linn LP12 and Linn pre amp and amp. The speaker wire is 12 gauge and new wire.

I LOVE these speakers around 1 year ago they started to sound like garbage. As many have said they are VERY sensitive to the components before them. They are also showing what I think is the effect of worn out caps.

There are many out here on these boards I know of that are using the Klipsch (heritage) with cheaper Japanese electronics because the speakers are cheap! (for what they can do) One thing I would recommend is give these speakers the best quality musical sources you can afford. There is a LOT to get out of these speakers. My other speakers are Linn speakers at around 4k new with Linn tri-wire (I think about 1k for that) and the Klipsch DESTROY them in my mind. If you like "live feel" there is nothing like them. In fact it shocks me how little speakers have improved in 30 years (or 60 years in the Khorns instance)

In fact I question Linn's theory (that they have proved many times) that the source is the most important in the Hi-Fi chain. Linn's theory is top notch source with lessor rest of gear including speakers trumps expensive speakers with lessor source. I think is right if all things are equal but Klipsch heritage are NOT equal! They make a sound and feel that most either LOVE or hate. (I am in the LOVE camp and other speakers are boring to me)

So here goes and I hope this helps guys looking at caps in the future. Keep in mind Klipsch (heritage Khorns Belle's and Lascala's especially) are likely to show the effects of crossover changes more then most.

1 The caps are 30 years old and
2 the speakers being horn driven make changes 10x times more apparent.

Someone once told me find speakers and components you like THEN start to tweak if needed. Don't tweak something you not in love with. Makes sense to me.

So sound
Record is Let it Be (Beatles)
The voices are hard almost sounds like a worn out stylus.
Treble is very hard. I Me Mine has hard sounding guitars. Symbals sound awful. Everything has a digital vs. analog comparison x50! Paul's voice not as bad as John's and George's. Voices will crack.

different lp
Trumpets sound awful. Tambourine terrible. Bass is not great seems shy (compared to normal) but the bad caps draw soooooo much attention to the broken up mid range and hard highs that are not bright if anything it seems the highs are not working up to snuff. I have went many times to speaker to make sure tweeters are even working.

All in all they sound like crap except these Klipsch have such fantastic dynamics that even when not right they are exciting!

Makes me wonder about the people who do not like them if they are hearing worn out caps and cheap electronics? Then I can see why they do not like them! If I did not know better from 25+ years of ownership that would make sense.

For the new crossover I have chosen Mundorf Silver in Oil from what I have read and can afford. I want a warm not overly detailed sound as Klipsch already has lots of detail and does not need to be "livened up" they need lush smooth sounding caps. Hope I have made the right choice?

When the crossover is in I will do a initial impression on same lp's. Right now it goes from really bad (on what may be worn vinyl) to not as bad but NOT great on great vinyl. (I know the quality of the vinyl because tested on other speakers Linn)

The new caps are Mundorf Silver in Oil and new copper foil inductors are coming. I will at the same time be rewiring the speakers to 12 guage from the lamp cord that PWK put in. PWK was a master at getting very good sound often with crap by today's standards components.

The choice of speakers would be a toss up now depending on what I am listening to. Klipsch vastly more dynamic but if the breaking up of the sound becomes to much to effect enjoyment the Linn would be a better choice on that Lp. If I could I would switch a button back and forth between speakers depending on song and how bad the break-up sound was bothering me.

volleyguy
stormen
30 posts
 
Volleyguy,

Yes, aren’t the CAST just fantastic? I was shocked myself…

I consider them the best upgrade I have ever done.

Happy listening.
volleyguy OP
789 posts
 
Stormen the CAST are AMAZING!

They are dark and quiet when you first get them though. Also they are hard to get a handle on.

A friend was by tonight and I did not tell him which speaker had the CAST in. At first he did the same as most do. He liked the VSF. After awhile he changed to the CAST. Which makes me think we like resonance at first then once our brains can process what is going on we like prefer the low resonance.

He said it was like the speakers were "full range with the CAST and noisy with the VSF".

The downside to the CAST is and there is a downside in my mind. They will not cover up your amp or source!

I will end up getting rid of at least half my vinyl. The CAST are excellent as they are ULTRA low resonance.

The strange side effect to me is I may end up selling my turntable not because there is anything wrong with the Lp12 but the CAST have revealed that my vinyl is MUCH more worn than I thought.

What the CAST have shown me is maybe vinyl is not the way to go at this level. My very good vinyl sounds fantastic! My less than good vinyl is torn to shreds by the CAST.

There is no hiding and pretending that the vinyl is Ok.

My Karik has finally quit opening so I have only an old CD player and the CAST tears it to shreds as a piece of garbage. (which it is!)

For horn speakers (which is of course what mine are) the CAST are miles better! The VSF sound all washed out by comparison. Everyone who has heard them wondered if the speaker with the VSF was broken! No kiddding.

The CAST tilt the sound downward by the MASSIVE reduction in noise. So if you get CAST be expecting that because you will get it. It speaks volumes that given a choice with one speaker on VSF tweeters and one on CAST I am very content to always listen to the CAST.

I agree with Stormen and although I have not traded the VSF's away I can easily see why one would consider them one of the biggest upgrades one could do going from VSF to CAST. Who would have thought??? Not me!

So much for the theory of dimishing returns.

Another interesting thing is many say horns do not have bass. I think by nature horns amplify sound. Since most noise is in the high freq the horn will exagerate that freq. So the horns sound like lack of bass. The CAST through the huge reduction in noise change the tonal balance down. The CAST have given a side benefit and that is correcting a weakness in my speakers.

I am going to have to hear Burt's modern horns. (not buying anything soon but am curious)

I feel the CAST tweeter caps very good value but the midrange with out hearing it that is a lot of coin! For my speakers it would be $2200 plus tax and shipping for mid range caps. Silver CAST would be $15k for the pair! Holy Crap!

After hearing CAST I must admit it would be haunting to know how much noise they get rid of and putting coin some where else in the system. If your caps are noisy (and even VSF are noisy) how can you get the most out of your system?

I want to thank everyone who has helped along the way.

After looking at those CAST prices I do not want to even contemplate. I am going to put one CAST and one VSF in the tweeters and finish the rebuild and wrap this up.

I am moving on to tweaking up the amp and maybe a top notch digital front end and no vinyl. Maybe.

Thanks for all the help!
matrix
305 posts
 
Now it explains it... Well I see where your true issues lie...

Your in need of some real electronics my friend no offense.. Your simply trying to pry some very old and distorted equipment back by now "covering it" with good filtering..and re-capping it. This includes your speakers and old vintage gear.

No doubt your cast caps are good, but the VSF's are just fine in a system with the right amps..

You need to seriously consider not wasting another 2000 to 3000 on more caps to cover up raspy horns driven by mediocre equipment to get this "Magical vintage sound"

To me it sounds that your money will definitely take you furthest with a minimum of getting PURE Class A Mono blocks Solid state or good stereo amp class A, Yes one made in this CENTURY!

I think your fighting a difficult battle on several fronts, not just reviving your old speakers or gear with all this re-capping exercise..

As for vinyl thats almost silly, not sure if your cleaning and setting up everything correctly.. As a matter of fact the Cast caps will take most vinyl to a Higher level not the other way around. Cleaning machine, good vinyl rig, and nice amps to actually drive your speakers will cost you at this point what you want in bandaid approach of capacitors!

Don't get me wrong the right mix of caps especially in the right crossover is great for really getting the most out of your system, but I think you need much more work up front if the VSF cap sounds distorted!!! Ha, thats just insane, or that speaker is really very colored being older horns. Most that do this stuff, amature or professional reading this thread I believe would agree at this point, so please save yourself before coughing up such ridiculous amounts of money on more caps when it can get you a first class system instead of all this shot in the dark hopes of re-viving more!
volleyguy OP
789 posts
 
Matrix I am not spending more on caps.

CAST are much quieter than VSF by a magnitude I would have never guessed.

As for mono blocks? vs. very old distorted equipment? The Fisher x101-d blew away my modern Linn Klout. (which was $4k and I had two of them) Linn guys feel that the Klout is almost as good as the Klimax which is $25k. The amp was dead, dead, dead in comparision.

That comparison was done on both my "old distorted raspy horns" and my modern Linn speakers. Now horns are not for everyone as they are all about finesse speed and do not need much power. The downside to horns is noise. The Fisher has 99% less noise than my modern SS amp.

I should explain even the Fisher (500c and x100) that I am saying is not as good (as the x101-d) is STILL much better than my SS amp was. The one Fisher is the quietest amp I have EVER heard.

CAST caps do take vinyl to a higher level. If the vinyl is good. CAST are so quiet they reveal so much that you can hear the very defects in the vinyl itself.

I use a VPI 16.5 RCM and often steam if needed.

I would have agreed on the VSF could not possibly sound distorted. If you check back in the thread I could not imagine better than VSF and tought I was likely wasting my money.

The CAST are ASTONISHING! The CAST make the VSF sound vintage. The detail is incredible! What I am saying is they cut out soooooo much noise you can hear groove wear. I can not see how this is ever going away with vinyl.

Matrix I am not so sure horns are from the last century as they for sure seem to be making a revival.

Here is a clip from Burt's site where a custormer is using my exact bass bins.

http://www.bd-design.nl/index1.html

There is a whole site of people stuck in the past with horns and mostly tubes.

http://www.bd-design.nl/index1.html

This is Johnk's system who has posted on this thread.

http://www.bd-design.nl/index1.html

So Matrix in the horn world you may spend on caps but you don't need a mega powered amp. A lot use flea powered SET amps. (which is for sure on my radar)
Most of the horn guys will talk about getting rid of noise being most important. Hence my back flips over CAST as they are MADE for horns. (literally)

I would love to compare a set of old Khorns (with a modern CAST crossover) against a new set of horns. I can not say which would win but can say a set of Khorns with CAST is of NO resemblence to the vintage ones.

matrix
305 posts
 
No doubt my post was not very clear..

**First I totally agree, horns from then or now are the way to go for effective and cheaper alternative than several of the so called "esoteric" speakers..

Never would I or could I dispute.. By the way I was not directing a finger at your choice of gear, as
S.E.T is absolutely the way to go!! But I think the cost and time put into such Old tube gear you are trying to accomplish at these price points you will in fact find much newer SET amp designs to be quieter, and much more dynamic, with all the goodies you seem to feel comes from your CAst caps being the main "Quieting and distortion free" culprit.

Point being as I see above you took us on a journey of old vs. new, or technology being inferior.. That was not my purpose here... I appoligize, as the old horns spruced up with mega quality crossovers is in fact my favorite way to short cut and be very cost effective too :-)

My opinion is that you can do much better with thousands on new century tube equipment which is much more designed toward silent and consistent operation with good quality caps in mind already than trying to Retro grade everything in the system at the levels you are starting to exhibit here was really my point...

For example I can tell you right now VSF or Cast no matter putting a fisher amp on it vs. a good newer version tube amp such as a Class A SET for a good deal on Audiogon will probably help you sleep at night knowing you did the best you can with that kinda money, only as I see above you mentioned maybe going in and putting another 2000 in crossover on the speaker, I also see you decided to not go that far, so I understand. Hope this helps...Trust me you don't need to prove to me the value of some vintage designs over new costly crap :-)
Good luck
More to discover