Zu Druid IV - the real deal?

Audiofeel,

"but the "phemonenom" is well documented by both manufacturers and listeners."

I'm just a noob at this can you show me where a serious audio company has documentation on "breakin", especially as a linear function of usage?

Things change over time but to say that manufacturers design their equipment based on predictable changes is novel but I believe it to false concept. A link would be awesome and please can we excuse small tube amp companies, cable companies and japanese audiophile companies. Thank You.

"Frequency accuray is sensational on Definitions, and very good on Druids. Phase coherence is about as good as you have experienced and far better than most speakers. Top-top-bottom consistency of transient behavior is uniform."

Cobra213, could you share your measurements. I am anxious to see real measurements of the Zu speakers. Because my measurements of the speaker conflict with your comments. And I think maybe my total lack of experience might have had something to do with it?

"Being free of crossovers can take some getting used to, as can the phase linearity of the full-range driver design"

Also I'm dying to see the acoustic phase of this speaker properly measured, it promises to be something to see. Don't you agree?

Unsound? I'm having some difficulty with your premise.

"Most people will not put in the time to learn Burn in.. It takes a lot of patience, NOT LISTENING... You do not sit and listen for 15 hours straight and decide to see if something happens. But this much I can Guarantee, TUBES, Capacitors, And even Drivers will change sound character after being under continuous load for a good solid week to 2 weeks straight."

No actually that is not how it works, it takes about 4-5 duty cycles heating and cooling, that's like 4-5 days 4-8 hours. Are you an engineer and does any of the technicians who made your equipment have a degree in anything? I'm just curious where you got your information that you're so confident to guarantee results from? Just want to know, I'm a noob you know.

Skuras,

That's what speaker soundlike when it has a big driver, my advice would be to go surround, buy three more Druids and quality prepro and have it all in one system.

Macrojack, I hate to bust up your Zen

"Plainly, the two of us have different levels of acuity or, at the least, difference points of reference or taste. Neither of us is wrong and neither is an expert."

I disagree totally with your comment, because between the two of you only one is of any use to me as a speaker designer.

"What I'm getting at is the need for all of us to recognize that our values are perceived and our opinions. flawed."

Again DISAGREE.

Sounds are fleeting no matter how many times we replay them. The notion of an Absolute Sound is poppycock. How can the ephemeral be absolute?

Because the signal has been captured on a recording, frozen lifeless and Absolutely quantified my friend. For better or for worse....

Well that's the kind of answer I expected.

Macro.

Where the problem comes in is you SAY that the X-speaker has superior phase, dynamics, linear frequency response, etc. All easily measurable attributes. But you don't measure which means you don't really "know", because you only know what you've been told what has been suggested. How do you KNOW if you have a properly working pair of speakers in the first place?

I've been talking to Sean since he was at Kimber, much longer than you have I'm sure. My point is you drop all these technical attributes and say that speaker X is superior to Y and For Z reason, and yet you've no facts on how speaker X is actually performing or Y for that matter. If you're going to say it like its a fact then back it up with something substantial.

"I am sure that you will find that Sean Casey at Zu can answer your questions about measurements and design decisions."

This is not about Sean Casey, this is about YOU talking about stuff you don't have any proof of but using it to run down other products and Zu at the same time. Saying measurements don't matter!? Sean busted his ass researching and testing that speaker, and poof, in a sentence you say its meaningless. The driver was a lucky guess...do you realise that is what you imply when you simply dismiss measurements as meaningless?

"God made winter and created me naked. And every year I put on clothes because the artist set me up to freeze to death if I don't."

So its god's fault you decide to live where it gets cold? :)I don't think so Einstein, I don't remember any mention of winter in the Garden of Eden.

What bearing does that have on Zu or this discussion?

You're misrepresenting the performance of the speaker. You downplay all the engineering that went into the speaker and thus you create conflict for ZU. Your good intentions are creating negativity because you don't know what you're talking about, except when you say you like them. That I believe, the rest is unusable.

"It sounds like you are attempting to position yourself as superior to that established manufacturer."

Typical SP audiophile, no I used that example to show you that if you don't have measurements your ability to do quality control is suspect at best, listening experience is not valuable over long time frames without something to base the experiences. My comment are all about you and your comments about how you prefer to feel around in the dark instead of learning facts about audio.

"I don't know the weight of my car keys, the height of my mulberry tree or the time it takes me to shave."

Well if you were to say in conversation you shaved the fastest, you had a larger than average Mulberry tree and the heaviest set of car keys on the planet, ie all the relative qualitative comments about your speakers. Then I would expect, you could back up your comments with some relevant facts. Or without some sense of timing how could I even begin to quantify your shaving speed. How many times do you think you'd could tell me really really really fast, before I'd go, yeah you shave fast :( ...?

I'm just asking you to be fair, you picked on Bartokfan who makes me roll my eyes too, but you're just as bad, just more subtle about it.

Am I making my point?

"But I'm afraid that measurements aren't valued much around here. This is a very subjective and experiential crowd."

Yeah actually I know that, its what I call "feeling around in the dark". And my history has been to march through your "experience" and show that all they really have is a house of cards for your audio knowledge temple.

You can't build a high quality 12 inch fullrange driver without serious instrumentation, so if those measurements matter so much to you, why do the end product measurements matter so little?

One measurement creates the miracle the next is useless? Tsk Tsk, I see philosophical conflict within you.

"The Zu boys took up the challenge and succeeded in their pursuit by using modern materials and instrumentation that was unavailable to WE's very capable staff."

How does a company achieve quality control, without measuring their product? How does technology advance without documented history? Listening to it? Let me tell you that doesn't work. I've had $17,000 Stereophile Speaker of the Year show up after several weeks "shakedown" at the factory with the crossover so badly miswired, I'm not sure how all the speakers worked. And how did they not hear it? How many audiophile visitors just ate it up as the panacea of audio, and half the drivers were messed up in one speaker? Yeah our ears go both ways when it comes to their accuity.

Its all about measurements Macro, you need to understand that the truth is there, because as you mentioned you are prone to mood swings making you a highly dubious source for information. We all are.

The fact that measurements constrict freedom, temper creativity and limit the heights of self-delusion does take the fun right out of the hobby for some I realize.

But for some of us, measurements are the guide post, proof that we are playing back the musical information as the artist intended, even if that means we don't like it as much. Because the artist comes first and myself; I personally feel editing an artists intentions to suit my self is selfish and a seriously short-sited intellectual decision.

Oh well