God, I am doing it again. I went to the site in question, and the Cd players listened to were, Krell, Theta, and others of that ilk.
I am sure he has plenty of others as 'evidence', but this one caught me by surprise.
This is in the upteenth generation of players, some 9 years after introduction. |
Slappy, as I said, I THINK, not sure, that it was printed in the US Scientific Journal, not sure of the name either, this is one of those things in the dark recesses of a 50+ year old brain. The quote was attributed TO the US Patent office, as if, "Hey our job is done, they ain't gonna invent ANYTHING else." |
To be the first to answer one's own post seems bizarre, but here is yet another slice of his logic from the same email.
"While it is unquestionably true that many technical areas have improved, many tests have shown that reports of this early harshness was, for the most part, unfounded. I.e., many of those early CDs played today sound indistinguishable when played on first generation players and newer players in a double blind test. _All_ CD players do not sound exactly alike as some are too cheaply made and others were/are simply defective. However, at a certain price point and level matched, the differences disappear. See http://tinyurl.com/53e3s for just one of hundreds of examples."
Have I lost it, or do cd players, circa 1984 REALLY sound largely like cd players of today, all things being equal, otherwise? |
I certainly recognize that intelligence insures nothing as it relates to this topic, just to get that out of the way; from an art perspective, Andy Warhol, like him or not, was wildly successful, and had an estimated I.Q. of 85, which places him in the mildly slow category, as average uis between 90 and 110, average being established by the largest portion of scores i.e. the most will score 100 with others falling at the extremes. I only point out that someone who is a thinking person, will take an issue, and treat it with such a closed minded approach, disallowing even the remotest possibility that cables, and power cords for example, can make a difference.
I am on the side of the ledger that states, 'just because I don't understand or can't rationally condlude why this IS the way it is, doesn't make it untrue, and doesn't mean it isn't happening.
In Psych 101 the professor asked the old chestnut, "if a tree falls in a forrest and no one is there to hear it, is there any sound?" Someone in the front row said no, and he agreed. I raised MY hand and said, "well if there's no noise, there's also no tree, and no forrest."
The professor immediately told me I was being disruptive, and I pointed out that I had simply taken his logic one step further, for illustrative purposes. The answer being, if it takes human interaction for reality to have occurred, (an event such as gathered sound waves) it also takes eyes to behold the tree, and or the forrest.
The point here is, I don't need to understand why, to appreciate differences, whereas, emperically, he does.
Someone said, 'there is a tendency for teachers to talk down to both adults and students, so I chose to get out of the field." I think that that is the real hook here, the smugness of the response.
Thanks for responding. |
It's funny, this thread conjured up memories of my old store in Louisville.
The way I would evaluate anything was first, unkown, as to which was which, then, do an A/B/A. I would make notes sometimes, but usually, and this is a curse rather than a blessing usually, I would immediately hear the differences, for good or bad. Now, to be clear, I NEVER cared which was better, I only wanted to know.
This was an instructive time in my audio development, in that it taught me patience, and let me be self assured. One of the posters on here who shall remain nameless, hates me because I hear in seconds, what it takes him hours to ferret out. And trust me on this ALL of his tests are blindfold tests, and he's really good.
I only wish, God love him, that my brother and I could have a discussion about possibilities for a change, rather than onlt dwelling on that which is known. The only way we discover new things is to go out on that limb. When, (yes I am a commercial poster) I voiced my speakers, I used the Sound Labs as well as my inner reference of music as a musician for decades, as the control. I never questioned the outcome with caps etc, or wiring, regardless of where it led, I only accepted the findings, as sounding either better or not as good, regardless of what was SUPPOSED to be according to the hype or accepted wisdom.
Most of you out there when listening to power cords no doubt have had the same experience. One is better than another, WHY? Maybe a better plug, and so on, but who cares ultimately. If it sounds better it IS better, for you. This is why speaker designers pull their hair out. They are all convinced that theirs are better, no doubt, but since this IS SUBJECTIVE, we'll always agree to disagree, I guess.
Thanks, keep em coming, you guys are interesting. |
BTW thanks to Lugnut, condescending is a correct description of his attitude, and God is it ever annoying. |
I agree to the extent, Holzhauer, only if you think that ignorance is bliss.
To never go on a cruise because you are sure without knowing that you will get sea sick, or feel confined on a ship.
To not go to Paris, for fear that the ethnocentric French will give you a hard time.
To never hear music in your home played like it can be, just to save a few dollars; when we both can agree that the undertaker rarely sews money into the pockets of shrouds.
Yes he spends less, but he can afford to enjoy one of life's great joys, music, with much more lifelike gear, but allows himself to accept less through a completley shut down logic path.
I may be frivilous, but I am having fun not with only the music, but with the joy of discovery, and I hope it will always be so. |
By the way, how could someone who is as proud as you; enough so to take pictures of your system to show the world, make such a statement of how HE is lucky. I think you and I are lucky to have found something we love so much. |
Rsbeck, you are being needlessly ugly here.
The first things I stated about my brother, above are, and I quote "He holds a Masters Degree in Education, self taught himself regarding computers, enough to become the MIS Director for a school system, and early in life actually self taught himself to arrange music, from existing compositions,". I would tell anyone, and have, that he is brilliant in so many ways, buy typical of many non believers. I don't point this out for the personal issues, which are real, but for the whole of audio lovers who face the same, kind of, " I won't even try it, because I don't believe it" viewpoint. I am saying that ignorance, (different from stupidity) is bliss, if one deny's him or herself the opportunity to try something due to a predisposed thought process, which allows them to not believe in the possibilities that can exist. Obviously you disagree, and I respect that, butyou are missing the finer point here, or so it seems.
He's not stupid,quite the contrary; just sure that nothing that he can't understand, or explain is possible. My point is, where would we be if everyone adopted that attitude?
Only the 'dreamers' and the 'what if people' like Edison, who performed (to world ridicule as the stories go) 10,000 experiments on the light bulb, before getting it.
The Scientific Journal asked him, "How does it feel to have so many (at that time I think it was 5000)failures.
Edison, just looked at the interviewer and said, "I don't see it that way, as a scientist, I now know 5000 things that won't work. The rest is history, and of course he perfected the bulb.I am saying that my brother's attitude, represents a group of people who, if they can't explain it, won't even try it, and for all of his brainpower, would never have invented the light bulb, or whatever, and I think that's a waste of his abilities, that's all.
|
I debated 'outing' a personal experience, ie my brother, until I (probably) rationalized, that this is an issue many of us audio crazies have, with friends and acquataintences. But as I read some of the great posts here I realize that I have forgotten one of my first pieces of advice to my new audiophile customers: "Don't expect your friends to like or even understand your enthusiasm over this, You'll put on Sarah Vaughn recorded at Tivoli Gardens in 1962 live, and it will sound wonderful, and they will yawn and ask, 'you got any beer?' You can't transfer enthusiasm, or in my case fanaticism to others.The one post here, talking about the 'smug' attitude was almost a perfect balm, as it captured the exact feeling and moment.
Thanks for the posts, this is great. |
Rsbek,
You are right about the 'ignorance is bliss' comment on me.
But to clarify; since I rarely read, other than people talk about using 'hospital grade' plugs, on power cords, as to why they are different--what I am saying here is that I personally, that is just me, not you or the other posters here, don't have to know why something is as it is--and I can still enjoy it.
As I mentioned, when some products were sent to me, with great reputations, yet failed to 'sound' better than others of lesser credentials, (and it may have had to do with the overall synergism, like so many things in audio) I picked, for my design, the one that sounded better to make the LSA. That is one area where many designers and I disagree. To me it's all about the end result and sound, not the reputation of a given product. I guess you could say that's niiave (sp), but for me its just, making a decision, (my taste again) of what sounds better.
Ultimately the market will decide if my decisions are correct. But, regardless of the 'why's' better sounding is better. I don't need a white paper for confirmation. Maybe I am completely out to lunch there, but it's how I personally evaluate.
All of you are right here, forget what your brother says, he is no more right or wrong, just has a different opinion, and I guess I am so arrogant, that if he doesn't agree with me, he's being obstenant.Who' more hard headed, him or me? HA!
All of us audiophiles push the proverbial rock up the hill, when it comes to disinterested friends, it's just that with him, I guess I'd like to share my enthusiasm, rather than explain or fight over it.
Thanks again. |
Naive....Sorry I have a new ergonomic keyboard, and am trying to adjust, plus I am not sure that my spelling is always correct, and being a usually good speller, I don't check as I should, though I outght to start.
This has run it's course, and I should leave my brother alone, let him buy his multi thousand dollar camera equipment without comment...
To each his own. He's a good guy, a good brother, just annoying to a hobbiest such as me sometimes.
Thanks again for the responses. |
Sean,
Through the years I have done some listening tests with him and proven that I personally do hear differences, that perhaps he doesn't, or more likely doesn't care to, but to no avail. He isn't an audiophile, and I just need to let that go. I guess there's a part of me, like maybe with you and your wife or friend(s) who you WISH you could share this with, but they just have no desire for it.
This whole thread was actually a metaphor for the whole of the group, and the frustration that SOME may feel from loving the chase, and the differences we hear, and wanting to share, and getting stonewalled by them.
But thanks for the advice, as usual, good advice from a pro.
Larry |
Sean,
It's funny that you should suggest the 'test'. Years ago, I mentioned to him that cleaning all the connections of his system contact points, and applying Michael Dayton-Wright's Tweak, would improve the sound, and he really got a chuckle out of that. So, challenged, I did just that, (Kind of Tom Sawyer like huh?) and he was stunned at the difference. Of course, the contacts were filthy, so the largest improvement probably came from the cleaning rather than the Tweak, nontheless for a couple of months he was more receptive to some of the thoughts of a 'high end' nature.
But as many have pointed out, he's happy, hell let him be. |
I am in virtually perfect agreement with TWL, in his comments. I have always believed that, just because we don't know what to measure for, or precisely how to measure a certain event; this does not mean that it does not exist, nor that it didn't happen.
In the Scientific Journal of @1898, a comment was made, and I believe attributed to the US. Patent office, to the effect, that 'all that can be invented, has been invented, or discovered.' Now this is a very lose, and imprecise quote, but the essence of what was said is correct. But I think it conveys at least part of my philosophy, and TWL's.
That is why I mentioned that I only preferred, what sounded better, 'to me' as a designer, not what had the best reputation,or was 'supposed to be better.' It takes guts to simply follow your gut and say, 'this is better.'
The caveat here is, of course, 'to me'. Therein lies the subjectivity. But again, I think TWL is on the mark. Good comments, and I too am glad to see that some research is being done, such as you mention. |
I also think that it would be interesting to put someone in a Mercedes Benz, then a Hyundai Elantra, (or whatever their best is, blindfold them, and ask them to describe their experience--and then tell us if the experience is worth five to six times as much. (Don't bother to point out that the Mercedes will LAST longer, since the Hyundai has a 100,000 mile warranty and Mercedes doesn't.)
Also, let me cook a steak, (sorry vegetarians) for what I can buy it for at the store, prepare the whole meal, wine included, and have them eat it blindfolded and see if the experience is worth the several times price difference. Life is full of choices, a great deal of which our ego plays a large, and probably most significant part. Pride of ownership is a key component (no pun here) in the choices we make.
When I got my Robert Lee special speaker cables, the Shotguns, I was fascinated at the difference they made, even though I had been using Kimber Select 3035 on both the top (treble) and bottom, (bass). And when I accidentally hooked up the low pass to the top on the right speaker, a friend of mine, who happens to be blind, said, "something isn't right here." (Talk about your ultimate blindfold test.)
He and I listen like this, him not knowing, and making decisions as to what is better. Even though I am faster on the uptake, (at his admission) we always agree on the emperical difference, and how the music is affected overall, when we change tubes or use a Sistrum, and so on.
The point here is, since I listen, almost exclusively with my eyes closed, (in order to SEE Chet Baker or Nat King Cole) what is the purpose of putting pressure on people by blindfolding them. This seems to be the only industry in which people are denied one of their senses to make evaluations.
One other thing. I read, and can't remember where, so it's worthless data, that people, when blindfolded and under test conditions, are pressured, and have a hard time even tasting the difference between common items such as strawberry preserves and cherry, or grapefruit and orange juice. If that is the case, maybe there is something wrong with that approach.
If you like it, it's good, (Bose or Polk, THIEL or Vandersteen, Maggies, et al) so what. Enjoy.
PS, Thanks to the group, I am leaving my poor brother alone. He is right to think I am an **shole! HA |
Not here to reserect an old thread--however...appropos to the comment I just made (six years ago) regarding how blindfolds 'alter' reactions and put pressure on respondants. Last night I watched, (for the second time) the movie, Hereafter...starring Matt Damon. There's a scene in which he and Dallas Howard are taking cooking classes and one exercise is to, when blindfolded, taste rather well known food items, then describe their flavor.
Essentially, the message was, as I stated 2/10/05, they really couldn't differentiate between some well known food stuffs.
I know that that sounds strange, but its really true--and I firmly believe that when audiophiles are 'put to the test', in the manner described, they can, and some do 'freeze'. Not unlike, being 'test phobic', something that I am personally familiar with, having gone through that in a younger life.
In my store I had a strict 'test' policy for wires and such.
Don't try to fool me--just do this: A--then B--then A again. I'll make copius notes as to which is better and how, and that becomes my decision. The key was to do this with that same product, on more than one occassion...the day, the moment, the mood all effect the senses, so to make 'sure' do it more than once.
Anyway--one more addendum to this.
Way back in the day, questioning his choices for crossover parts, as many people did, I would ask Jim Thiel, "Why don't you use better parts." He would say, "Well, they measure the way they do with THESE parts Larry."
Deferring, I didn't push it too far, unless wine was flowing at dinner. Then, in the twilight of his life, Jim designed the CS2.4 Special Edition--with the entire difference in speakers, being vastly upgraded crossover parts. When questioned on this, he said, and I'm paraphrasing, "Well, there are some things that matter that can't be measured."
Amen to that.
Good listening,
Larry |
Greeni,
You make a really interesting point-- which is no doubt true.
The 'measurable'(I'm paraphrasing my own thoughts as to your meaning here, how's that for a stretch?)is always preferable in terms of testing, to the obvious.
You said, and I agree:
"Our culture, the educational system reinforced this tendency. We tend to equate intelligence with a logical mind and sensibility, and dismiss our intuitive and creative faculty."
So, (I'm agreeing again, just being provocative), one must ask some questions regarding logical versus creativity AND intuition and their relative merit.
"Who taught Willie Shakespeare to write?"
"Who taught DaVinci about physics, in a world before the concept of physics was even thought about by the masses?"
(Think, helicopters, gross anatomy and other such things that he speculated on), AND by the way, his I.Q. while impossible to calculate has been guestimated to be in the neighborhood of 220. Since, 100 is the 'norm' that means that his core capactity is 2.2 Times that...I think that's probably really, really a low guess.
"Who taught Pasteur?"
"Who taught Mario Puzzo?"
So, while your 'creative' comments and the lack of appreciation are clearly on the mark, MOST of what has shaped this world has been 'created' by someone special.
When I first met Jim Thiel, and was new to audio...I asked him, "Where did you study."
When I met John Iverson, (of Electron Kinetics fame) I asked him the same.
They both just shook their heads, no doubt thinking..."Oh, I went to UK (Lexington) or IU, (Bloomington) and studied Loudspeaker building 101 thru 404 and 'Amplifier Creation'
101 thru 404.
Those of us who can create and intuit, do this without any logical jumping off point it seems--and those who need emperical data, sometimes sit back and evaluate those who have.
Somehow that seems really wrong to me.
Good listening,
Larry |
Budt,
I'm not sure I understand your post.
Good listening,
Larry |
Mrtennis,
The phrase 'sensitivity threshold' comes to mind.
Some of us are 'tuned in' to exceedingly small incremental changes in pitch and volume--others not. Sort of like friend who's wife can 'remember colors'...she can see a paint chip of a color and remember what seems to be the 'exact shade' that that color is. So she is tuned in to color shadings.
I've spoken of another guy on here before, but a dear friend of almost 30 years, (previously a customer) is blind and has been since birth--and, knowing that some folks ascribe to the old chestnut about sight loss and hearing...and I actually had this happen. Joe, my friend was in my store, and this 'Beverly Hillbilly' lout comes in, sees Joe, with his Guide Dog, listening to music, and blurts out, "WOW, YOU'RE BLIND, I'LL BET YOU HEAR EVERYTHING..." or something else equally innane.
Joe and I listen together sometimes, new product eval and such...and we agree on virtually all things audio--the only difference is, we've noticed I'm quicker on the uptake for whatever reason...maybe a smaller 'threshold' than most people.
Over the last 30 years, observing him...I can only say that Joe pays exceedinly 'close attention' to all things audio--moreso than most people, and therein lies the difference he experiences.
Good listening,
Larry |
Tubegroover...
"My question to you Larry is How do you two get along otherwise?:) There appears to be something deeper going on than your question..."
I was talking to a friend, who's also a shrink telling him about some of our interactions, like the time..
I had bought my wife a beautifully restored Classic Jag XK.
Drove it to Lexington to show it off--his first question,
"What kind of mileage does it get?"
The shrink burst out laughing...me, of course I was pissed.
He said, "Larry you don't see this as sibling rivalry, plain and simple?"
Guess I didn't, but his daily goal seems to be to 'light me up' about any and everything, this being one example.
Good call Tube...
Good listening,
Larry |
I sincerely hope that all of you realize one thing...many years ago, I would admonish my customers at the retail level..."This is a singular hobby, don't expect your friends to begin to understand."
They'll come over, you'll be all excited about your new preamp, speakers, whatever--try to sit them down for a listen...you'll turn it on, and up louder for maximum effect...they'll sit there impatiently, squirming a bit, looking around, then blurt out, "That's nice, you got any beer?"
So, when I make these statements about my brother, it transcendends even my logic circuits--I know at the most basic level, the futility of anyone caring as much as I do.
Good listening,
Larry |
Back to this 'old thread'.
I recently saw the movie, 'Hereafter', directed by Clint Eastwood, starring Matt Damon...I LOVED this movie, and the main theme, played thoughout, written by Eastwood, is a treasure. He has orchestra playing it, classical guitar, piano (think Eastwood played it)...it's haunting and beautiful. But THAT'S not the reason to write today.
Lush said...
"It still doesn't explain how no blind tests have yielded credible results in how we as listner's can perceive differences in an accurate setting."
There's a wonderful scene in the movie, in which Damon and Dallas Howard are taking a cooking class, and one 'exercise' is to taste food blindfolded...then tell what it is that they're tasting.
Overall, they were unable to tell what most items were.
I'm convinced that the 'Blindfold Test' that most people talk about...creates an 'angst'...some blocker, that causes most people freeze...to not be able to pereceive differences that one would normally think, are easily noticed.
I have NO scientific data to support this...but I had heard, before the movie of course, that under blindfold conditions, people don't perform within normal parameters...who knows...just thought it interesting.
Maybe someone out there DOES know.
Good listening.
Larry
By the way...I have a Book for sale on Amazon.com/Kindle it's a Political Action Thriller...called, "In Plain Sight"...it's a fast paced fun work...go check it out...$2.99--sorry for the commercial...but as a ten year poster here...maybe I've earned the right to plug this...I hope so! |
