2. amps-preamps
  3. 1123254379

VAC Ren II, VAC Phi, or ARC Ref 3?

Finally, the two cold solder joints in one of my Rowland 7M amplifiers have been fixed. Just a simple 2 minutes soldering job at home, thanks to a kind live phone consult by Jeff himself. Now the system is back purring like a kitten.
Great say you, but. . . the problem is that now I have fallen totally prey to Upgraditis Furiosa, the most pernicious and 'wife threatening' form of Audiophilia Nervosa.
I listen mostly to classical--lots of chamber, vocal, Early Music, Baroque, Romantic, some large orchestra, lots of cello and other strings--on a system that I have lovingly put together over the last 20 years: EAD T1000, AT&T glass C-core glass wire, EAD D7000 Mk. 3, AudioQuest Quartz RCA, Audio Research LS2B, Gutwire XLR, Jeff Rowland 7M monoblocks, Cardas Golden Ref PCs on 7M, Cardas Golden Ref speakerwires, MagnePan 3A speakers.
The sound is sweet, lush, with a large if slightly unfocused soundstage, sometimes slightly veiled, somewhat soft at the bottom, can sound glorious in the midrange, good if not spectacular at the top. Much better at small ensembles than at full orchestra, where the sound stage can collapse and full strings and brass often display signs of brittleness and two-dimensionality. But, so much for self-criticism. Now what to do?
I intend to migrate towards a fully balanced system, with redbook and SACD capability and a tube linestage. I will start upgrading at the source and linestage points. The source will be an Esoteric X-01 or an upcoming APL NWO-1. But in this thread I'd like to discuss options for a new linestage. My requirements are an open and detailed, sweet sound, accurate with minimal coloration, with very good but not necessarily overwhelming macro-dynamics, an excellent three-dimensional and accurate soundstage, superior microdynamics and subtle nuance. The linestage must sound great out of the box--after breakin of course: not only after going through many cycles of NOS tubes musical chairs. All of this from a company with a stellar track record and reputation in quality, dependability and pre/post sale support. I listened to the VTL 7.5 and found it to be too soft. The BAT VK51SE sounded too dark. Then I listened at length to the VAC Ren II, which seems to embody all of my requirements. I have not heard the VAC Phi as yet, but it is in the running by inference. Nor I have listened to the ARC Ref 3, although I intend to: Ref 3 is in the running by reputation.
Suggestions? Opinions? It's your turn guys and girls!
guidocorona

Showing 6 responses by dgad

dgad
782 posts
 
I feel it is time to chime in. I just played around with the tubes in my VTL 7.5. I am actually at a point of loss for now. I changed the 12AU7s for the 12AX7s. Stock Sovteks for both pairs. The 12AX7s give much more gain & better bass & more extended highs than the 12AU7s that I received originally. I purchased the preamp from a gentleman who replaced his ARC Ref 3 with the VTL & had both for sale. He felt the VTL was better than the ARC. He has sold the ARC as well just before he sold the VTL. He had both for sale as he switched to the ASR Basis Emmiter II integrated.

I also heard there was a major update to the ARC Ref 3 since it came out. So I don't know which version he originally had.
It even gets more confusing. I have now too much gain & am missing the warmth of the 12AU7s. I was recommended by VTL to switch back to 12AU7s. Depending on the source will decide which tubes you need. Mine is currently the EMM gear, which is very high output.

Luckily the VTL uses only 2 tubes. The addition of balanced is a very significant benefit & should not be ignored.

On to speaking with the tube rollers out there. They all say it is crazy to spend so much on great equipment & not get NOS tubes. It is like putting small tires on a Porsche. So I am about to purchase some NOS tubes for about $250 or so. Not alot compared to the VTL 7.5. Time will tell. Not even sure if I should buy a few types of tubes for the sake of experimentation.

The sum of my story is the VTL is a little soft w. 12AU7s. Extended at both ends w. the 12AX7s. Both Sovteks (stock inexpensive tubes). Just too much gain w. the 12AX7s. The VTL you heard may have been with a 12AU7s accounting for the softness. For sure it is very very dynamic w. the 12AX7. In the end what is your source will really determine a lot more about the preamps system compatability & what tubes you use.

REmember with only 2 tubes, it makes no sense not to roll tubes. I can understand that have a preamp with a lot of tubes it would be a pain. I am not willing to roll tubes on my amps at this time (maybe the input tubes).

Hope I helped.
dgad
782 posts
 
Great post & great notes. REad the entire thing. Well worth it. I thank you for your work. Nothing compares to a listening session w. the variables being well notes. Also nothing reveals a preamps sound as well as a comparision of going direct.

I stand by what I said in an earlier post. The beauty of the coloration of tubes is what we are buying. Just how much is the question. As you indicated there was not much distance between the DCS direct or via the ARC. Both were liveable. This mirrors my experience w. my Audio Aero direct vs going via my VTL TL 7.5. Also this demonstrates the difference between a Placette line stage & a great tube linestage. I myself love my coloration of tubes. Now only to choose which color. Today they come in so many shades with any great one being great. It is all a matter of choice. It depends on your system not on what any of us post over here.
dgad
782 posts
 
Guidocorona,

Let me define coloration as anything that changes the signal our sound from the source. This means that if the CD is bright & your preamp is not and you result w. a balanced sound your equipment is still colored.

Uncolored. A bright CD player sounds bright or unchanged after placing a preamp in the path.

Now in terms of your post please allow me to quote you w. some comments;

"Removing Preamplifier from the system. Now running DCS directly into the Rowland 302. Volume controlled on DCS attenuator.
Slightly lighter sound than with ARC Ref 3.
Still truly gorgeous. Lots of 3D stage.
Still extremely liquid.
May be not as warm as with ARC Ref 3. Still beautiful.
No great congestion even in FF."

I would presume the less warmth going direct means the ARC is "coloring the sound". I would also agree it is a beautiful color that we can call extremely musical & maybe just a musical. But I would submit to you that warmth is a form of color that I myself love in the moderate amounts, but yet feel it is a departure from the sound of hte source - the DCS rig.

"Dvorak Quintet 2nd movement:
Stage almost as great as with ARC.
Touch less player's breathing than on ARC after optimization?
Touch less body in mid strings.
Greater sense of completeness, 3D, imaging than on VAC Ren Sig II
Perhaps slightly less involving, than with ARC Ref 3, but would live with it happily.
Still sounds right.
Incredibly clean. ARC has an edge on involvement. Pure DCS has an edge on clarity.
Piano arpeggios with lots of overtones."

DCS has an edge on clarity to me means that you lost clarity by entering the ARC Ref 3 into the equation. In addition the ARC edge on involvement basically says the same thing.

I submit that any tube preamp and additional interconnect combination will add body, remove slight detail (maybe ever so slight) and possibly allow you to be more involved in the music.

Is it worth the money is a question I had great issues resolving before I took the plunge. Now I am very happy with my decision.

Enjoy all that you do.
dgad
782 posts
 
Guidocorona,

I agree with your assesment based on your definition. In that regard I would also say that the addition or removal of any top shelf preamplifier (top shelf is open to debate) will yield similar results. And to be honest is isn't very easy to diagnose in an A B test comparison. It is more appropriately evaluated via long term listening. The truly toughest test of all.

Now to throw in a new caveat, in my system any movement of the cables at all between equipment requires usually about a week for them to settle in & achieve the most listenable state. Oh, this gets so complicated. I have other friends who have mentioned the same experiences. I would strongly suggest that the Kimber did benefit in some way, but maybe not to its best ability. Also the latest generation of DCS equipment is highly regarded. I am an EMM fan & haven't heard the latest generation of DCS equipment. I have heard most of my previous equipment in multiple systems. Each time liking the overall system & finally deciding on a purchase. This included the EMM gear, Audio Aero, Wilson Watt Puppy 7s, & the VTL 7.5s. Mind you not my 750s, but I used to own the 100s years ago to great enjoyment. I also have heard Kharmas multiple times & found them dynamically limited each time and have heard Accuphase finding it to still sound "digital".

Is the ARC Ref 3 a great product. I am sure it is. I am looking forward to hearing it. I have heard ARC many times & highly recommend it. I ultimately feel the ARC house sound as well as many other top flight products have moved to much more neautral with a slight addition of maybe fullness or body to the sound. I remember loving the ARC Classic 60 on some ML speakers (If I remember right). I still want a Classic 60 sweetness in a second system for the fun of it.

The most fun of this hobby is the search & the reward after the search is over. Whatever you purchase should give you immense pleasure, should be synergistic with your system and keep you happy for a long time. Enjoy.
dgad
782 posts
 
Guidocorona,

I have only hearsay on the DP-100/DC-101 combo. I have been told that the Single box units are significantlly better. I have not been so impressed with any Accuphase digital gear in multiple listening sessions. Mind you, none of the listening sessions were ideal, but one was in a friends house. I am a big EMM fan. I just can't get over how great the performance of SACD is w. the EMM setup. Listening right now & it is so very smooth & dynamic. I just can't pick it apart.
dgad
782 posts
 
Guidocorona, Just to let you know what David Elrod said to me. I was placing electrical extensions in my house & wanted to know if I surface mounted the plugs on the floor close to the equipment & use a 6 foot cord or should I terminate in the wall & use a 12 foot cord. He said I could use the 6 foot cord. I am guessing the conditioning effects of the cord are accomplished in shorter lengths as well & using an extension cord or extending your electrical cabling from your outlet into a surface mount extension and then using a 6 foot power cord will accomplish the same end.

I am saying this to save you money on spending a lot more for a top of the line custom power cord of longer length. I hope I was clear. I feel like I am rambling.
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