Upgrading path from Merlin VSM black magic

Interesting discussion! :-)

I can't add any info about alternative speaker choices (given my biases :-) , not that I can think of anything besides some of the speakers already mentioned which would approach close to full range or full range type performance with a 20W SET amp), BUT I can add some thoughts about using subs with VSMs . . .

Many are right, Bobby would not like using the VSMs without the BAM and subs. It can be done though - from what I have just read of the Funk subs on their site and some reviews, given its DSP and crossover point adjust-ability - integration should not be a problem (especially with two subs vs one in my experience). I would certainly give it a try.

Though with the BAM, I would like to point out you can get a very good sub-woofer - VSM system. It has been done.... I have a long time local customer who has owned Merlin VSMs (updated) for many years (With Joule-Electra preamp and a old pair of Joule OTLs). His system is set up in a huge space (the home is pretty much a open barn like space and not a small one - the volume is quite large). Years ago (still in use today with some minor changes) we set up this sub set-up: two large (physcialy twice plus the size of the Funk 18.0's mentioned in this thread) Infra-Sonic (I think that is the name, the company is long gone) passive subs powered by a large 600W/ch Crown Macro ref amp, with Bryston active stereo sub woofer crossover used to set the low pass (top freq roll-off) for the subs.

One output came from the preamp, to the BAM and then to the OTLs. The other output from the preamp went to the Bryston and then to the Crown amp. I did the fine tuning of the level and crossover point by ear (this was around 2000 - before such cheap handy DSP stuff and measurement tools were available!) I wound up running the subs up to around 40Hz. Yes, that meant a fair amount of overlap between the VSM/BAM and the subs in the 30 to low 40s range, but with things phased right the results were/are downright majestic. Whether a big full scale Orchestral work or something like FourPlay, this setup had/has wonderful impact and scale. Jerry's set-up is probably the only VSM based system I've heard that had that big a sense of scale (I'm sure the large size of the room/space has something to do with that).

BTW, in a larger room with stereo subs, I would also try pulling the VSM's wider apart (more so that the approx 6ft Bobby usually recommended) with a bit more toe in. The added fullness/weight added by the subs will help fill things in allowing the speakers to work better further apart - probably give a bigger sense a scale/stage.

Hopefully this tale provides some fuel for thought. I'd hate to see anyone sell their (Black Magic) VSM! :-) - Rich

@dgarretson At one time probably 10 plus years ago I had a customers Velodyne (single 15 inch model)  on hand... I tired like heck to get it to work well (with my VSMs) in my 11.3' by 20' by 7.5' room with zero luck... the room would just not cooperate. The sub was too big and always made its presence felt in the wrong ways. It takes the right (size) room, good affordable DSP available these days, and more than one sub (IMO) to get a sub and VSMs to play well.

BTW, the batteries in the BAM are not NiCad, they are NiMH (Nickel Metal Hydride if I have it right). I do not doubt that a really good linear supply(s) (you would need two, one each for the positive and negative rails or multiply that by 2 if you want true dual mono power which would be best) bypassing the internal regulators in the BAM would be a improvement though would add substantial cost as well (I think a couple of good Paul Hynes supplies would probably run $1,000 or more, right?)

Cheers
Rich

@dgarretson

I'm sure your mods helped a bunch... the Battery BAM is (obviously) built to a certain price level and to have certain features (like the choice of the external raw  feeder power supply used because of its performance, cost, and ability to work on any world wide line voltage), but it is interesting to see what you can make of it if you want to spend the time and dollars. :-)  

@sstalwar

My customers set-up with the subs is very unique and because of the (huge) room size/acoustics (for ex, the room is easily 3x of yours volume wise) and the subs in use, the positioning of the speakers and subs (even if I had those measurements) would not be of any use to you or anyone else. Most likely, both pairs of preamp outputs are in parallel in your preamp and are both active at the same time.

Berning's Tube BAM is his design... probably only Dave Berning has any idea of what the circuit/schematic is ... With enough time and money, anything is possible and can be built (i.e. a tube BAM), but I think has dgarretson has shown - some mods/improvements to what folks currently have in their hands is probably a more reasonable way to go.

Cheers
Rich

Dave, you are not the only person who wanted Bobby to make a bigger VSM. Your idea is not a bad one, alas I am not a speaker designer/builder... and the speaker manufacturing business is a very difficult and competitive one (not inexpensive to do either). Right now as well, I have my hands full with running my little retail business end of things, handling Joule-Electra support/repairs/upgrades, Merlin VSM/TSM/BAM support/repairs/upgrades, and also working on getting Ars Sonum integrated amps re-introduced to the American market. All this is taking up much time (and money - spare Esotar tweeters, VSM/TSM woofers, test equipment etc etc).

Something more in my bailiwick (with my EE background) is the BAM - and I have been looking into (its a long term project) some improvements for the BAM that would not be too costly and still work with the current BAMs enclosure, board, etc and make some good sonic improvements.

Cheers,
Rich

 If the room is somewhat narrow leaving the VSM/TSM speakers somewhat close to the sidewall, toeing  them out can result in more reflected energy from the side wall which can make the mids sound more pushed (and staging would be hurt too).  So, instead of toeing the speakers out more,  told them in further so that the tweeter axis dresses in front of your face/listing position. 

 In my experience,  the VSM/Ars Sonum amplifiers combo has never sounded bright. But,  every room and system is different so this is certainly possible, though not probable IMO.  I have had customers who wanted a warmer more traditional tube like character  from the Filarmonia, and they have switched from the stock JJ E34L to other current production (new, not NOS) EL34’s and they are happy.

sorry for getting off topic. I certainly understand the VSMs are not the answer for everyone’s systems/needs. 

P.S. I have a customer using Devore Gibbons with the Filarmonia and soon a Gran Fila. Tells me the combo is great. The gent is a former Merlin owner

Cheers
Rich

Sorry for being off topic again, but I want to point something out for Ars Sonum Filarmonia (and Gran Filarmonia) owners that may see this thread. The designer of the amp (Ricardo Hernandez) does not recommend using KT77's in his amp.This is not a reflection on the KT77 (I know the new production Genalex Gold Lion KT77 is a very nice tube), but in the nature of the design of the Ars Sonum amplifiers. So, if you want to roll output tubes in a Ars Sonum amp, stick to EL34 (or E34L) tubes please.

P.S. I have tried the new JJ EL34II in my Filarmonia SK and found it very nice (fuller/sweeter - more tubey if you will than the E34L). I also have a customer who has a set of the (pricey) Sophia Electric EL34's in a Filarmonia and is very pleased with them.

Cheers
Rich

@sstalwar

Glad to hear it sounds like you are making some progress...

A update from some customers on a few things that may interest you (and others here):

One customer just got a JL subs (one of their e-sub models) and is running them from the speaker connections using the Ars Gran Filarmonia amp and Merlin VSM's with BAM (VSM hooked in parallel with the sub, not through it - blending the sub in below 40 to 50Hz). So far he is telling me that the combo is "awesome"

In regards to Devore's. My customer with Gibbon X's and the Ars Sonum Gran Filarmonia (and he also has the smaller Filarmonia too) keeps telling me the combo is of the two is great (and I should be a Devore dealer)..... My point is the Gibbon X's while not as efficient as the Orangutan series, they do well with tubes - probably not low power SET is the best match for them.

I've heard the Organgatan's at RMAF (I was in the Devore room a couple of times during the show - its was quite good).... while very good, the character is different then the VSMs. They struck may as a bit more robust in the mid-bass and a bit sweeter up top. Very good staging and musicality though - probably a great match for OTLs (Atma-Sphere or my personal favorite - Joule-Electra's) not just low power transformer coupled tube amps.

One final note for VSM owners, I have been making some progress on testing some improvements to the (Battery) BAM - focusing on that would (I hope) make some (cost effective) improvements to it. I have a prototype unit burning in right now.

@twoch In regards to mono block BAMs (for RCA based systems - i.e not balanced gear), not a worthwhile upgrade as the design of the BAM is dual mono after the raw batteries/external DC supply (any gain there is likely small given the cost).  Now if you have a (again RCA in/out) Super BAM (more so one that is not up to date), upgrading it to a Master BAM WILL make a worthwhile improvement in sound.

Dual mono BAMs are only a necessity if you want/need fully balanced (XLR in/ou) Master BAMs as all the required boards/parts needed physically will not fit in one BAM enclosure.