TONE


So, hear is my latest conundrum(well, perhaps that is a little bit of a  hyperbole)...
I enjoy my current system immensely, but do not actively compare it to others or seek listening to live music...I remain pleased with my systems dynamics, soundstage, detail, BUT am always wondering about TONE...being we all, more or less, have limited audio memory, I imagine only musicians who are regularly acquainted with the TRUE TONE of live instruments can recognize the accuracy of the TONE of an audio system....I guess I  kind of answered my own question, in saying I enjoy my system, BUT any advice/thoughts/suggestions about how one satisfies this concern?

128x128jw944ts

Showing 12 responses by mahgister

I know what I like to hear and given a microphone and digital EQ I can get any system to have the tone I like and maximize its image projection. I can not change the image size which is a matter of the way the speakers radiate.
I dont know at all what i like to hear....It is not a "taste"....

I want to listen piano or voices the more natural possible.... I dont have sound "taste"...Save i never choose "details" over more natural  timbre.....

By the way the image size is not only a function of the way the speakers radiate but ALSO of the way the room controls help it or impede it to do so....I can modify the image size of my speakers at will.... Before my  acoustic control implementation  the image size of my speakers was small and now fill the room.... Why?  Because of the way my 2-way box speakers radiate? it is a part of the answer but sorry not the complete answer....

Study acoustic and quit selling electronical equalization....
«You can create a system that depends purely on the source material. »
This is completely silly and totally wrong...Even headphones own an enclosure shell which is like a room that must be tuned...

Any source or recording process has his basis in trade off choices made in the acoustical settings of the original event... And in the same way you will listen not to some "ideal source" material but to your own room acoustical settings/speakers TIMBRE rendering of this source material... Then it is not about the alleged ideal source material first and last , it is about ACOUSTIC and PSYCHOACOUSTIC first and last....

You speak like this because you have defined your audio system through an electronical equalizer FIRST not with your ears and mechanical devices in control of the room FIRST... BUT NO Electronic tool could replace acoustic...


Then totally ignorant of what you speak about and the consequences of this choice you say:

«With the right source material you can create the dynamics and sound pressure levels of a live performance with a much more detailed image than you would normally get at most venues.»
The cost paid for that inflation of details MAY be a lost in the natural timbre perception experience, and a lost of musical coherency... One could effectively control the TIMING thresholds of early and late reflections that create "imaging" experience by controlling the material treatment of the room and also with the use of helmholtz resonators... This is called mechanical equalization....



It takes a good recording for sure, it is a common place fact, but the main factor is the acoustical control of the relation room/speakers.... No good recording will work fine in a bad acoustical room/speakers settings... And the imaging is NOT the only main factor to get right but NATURAL TIMBRE PERCEPTION first...This is what will guide your ears experience and will give a better feed back controls to improve imaging...You could create a relatively good imaging with an unnatural timbre perception but if you learn how to improve the natural timbre perception first and last, imaging cannot become wrong in the process...It is acoustic and psychoacoustic facts... We must bot confuse head with ass...

Then you go on inversing and confusing head with ass another times because of your electronical equalizer fad obsession and answer to all problem:


«Tone is different than timbre.Tone is a matter of frequency response. 75% of a speaker's character is due to it's frequency response in a specific room. The other 25% is due to it's radiation pattern. Some people prefer bright speakers, others want "warm",etc. This is all a matter of frequency shifts cause by the speaker's inherent frequency response in a specific room. »
Tone is only a PART of the instrument playing timbre which is the CONCRETE, perceived sound quality of the musical event NOT TONE...Tone is part of timbre but is not timbre....

If you read it on wiki the definition of "timbre" is these 5 modelling descriptors where pure tone is only the first:
" -1 Range between tonal and noiselike character
    -2 Spectral envelope
    -3 Time envelope in terms of rise, duration, and decay (ADSR, which stands for "attack, decay, sustain, release")
    -4 Changes both of spectral envelope (formant-glide) and fundamental frequency (micro-intonation)
    -5 Prefix, or onset of a sound, quite dissimilar to the ensuing lasting vibration

Then when you say that « 75% of a speaker character is due to it's frequency response in a specific room. The other 25% is due to it's radiation pattern.» this is a very bad way to describe reality, because you have decided to describe reality by the tool you decide to use : an ELECTRONIC EQUALIZER AND A MICROPHONE to define the speakers response with some limited set of frequencies or tone... .... It is not even wrong.....It is like the bed of Procustes fallacy, the greek bandit "who attacked people by stretching them or cutting off their legs, so as to force them to fit the size of an iron bed." WIKI

Like Procustes who modified the man for the bed instead of modifying the bed for the man, you modify the frequencies response of the speakers with a microphone connected to a computer program, instead of modifying first the room response to TIMBRE perception for the ears with material treatment and room mechanical feed back control....

50 % of Speaker character is define by their design first....Then after  that....

50% of speaker character perception is caused by the relatively large bandwith response and TIMING of waves (a vocal timbre for example)in some precise acoustical room settings, when a recording is playing FOR EACH EAR listening to the direct and early and late waves coming from EACH SPEAKER and "computed" by the brain, then this is not due to ONLY his specific " radiation pattern" like you said but ALSO to the manner direct , early and late waves are TIMED and synchronized coming from EACH speaker for EACH ear, in the geometry/topology/acoustical content of the room... The way the first wavefronts for EACH ear is marked out by timing tresholds and different pressure zones resulting from the waves crossings of the room many times in around 80 milliseconds is "computed" by the brain ...

And by the way real audiophile and knowledgeable one prefer NATURAL TIMBRE voicing speakers for their ears, nor warm neither bright...This is ACOUSTIC not a TASTE reunion of the electronical equalizer boyclub describing their speakers through their toys and using, instead of natural timbre perception descriptors, 2 abstract characterisation of the frequency scale: high or low.....

And you are wrong another time saying false facts... "warm" or "bright" DOES NOT results from what you just wrote: « This is all a matter of frequency shifts cause by the speaker's inherent frequency response in a specific room. »
  you description is tailor-made coming from the manual user of your equalizer... it is not a handbook of acoustic.... It is not even wrong....

The "warm" or "bright" character of speakers, save by concious choices and design, does not come from a "frequency shifts" MAINLY BUT from a relatively large bandwith shifts response caused by the ROOM acoustical settings for a more or less natural TIMBRE perception....We may called too warm or too bright a listened concrete instrument or voice event in a room for our ears but it is not an abstract frequency response for a microphone like you said .... Inversion of head and ass as usual and you are not even wrong....

And using electronical equalizer instead of mechanical equalization of the room, you ALWAYS fail to mention the LIMITATION of your toy: a frequency response lecture, a result which is valid ONLY for a listening location in MILLIMETER in the room.... Go out of this precise spot by 5 centimeter and the audible effect may change dramatically....A mechanical equalization with a large bandwith response control by modification of the different pressure zones of the room did not had these limitations....


Electronical equalization is a useful tool but is SECONDARY and ONLY an help to the creation of room treatment and room control...It cannot replace them at all....

By the way pitch perception cannot be explained nor reduced to frequencies modelling...It is a basic fact of psychoacoustic science.... The map so good it is cannot be confused with the territory....Then electronical equalization program are PARTIAL solution or secondary help tool....

In a word: we must change the room response for our ears first and last, not the speaker response for a microphone.....

We can use the two mode of equalization for sure, but the electronical one must be secondary and subordinated to the mechanical one....Anyway electronical equalization is wisely used for bass optimization but even there we can use Helmholtz resonators instead...



But dont listen only to me read what say this acoustician student of Floyd Toole:

«Measurements are a great way to assess a room’s acoustics, but the main problem we have is that most of the standards that exist for room acoustics have no relation to our perception of good sound in a small room. What value is there in assessing RT60 if the very concept was derived from much larger acoustic spaces. In fact, in small rooms, what most people will find is that the decay time of the room is relatively short, short enough that it’s not a great concern. Most small spaces naturally have too much mid and high-frequency absorption and not enough low-frequency absorption. You don’t need measurements to know that, because it is nearly universally true. Yes, measurements can be helpful in assessing a room’s acoustics, but the reality is most people aren’t able to make much sense of these measurements, and the changes their acoustic treatments make are often unmeasurable using commonly practiced methods.

In general, our ears do a better job assessing a room’s “sound” than does a microphone. The reason for this is clear. Our ears are a very sophisticated tool for perceiving sound and is capable of detecting very small changes in phase, tone, or direction. When we reduce a reflection in a room, our ears can detect this. Our measurements would struggle to notice. Small changes in reflections, especially at high frequencies, would not have a material effect on the steady-state response. That means that the adding of a small amount of absorption to a wall doesn’t really change our measurements much. In small rooms, the decay of sound at mid and high frequencies is so rapid that we would further struggle to see it in time domain plots such as waterfall graphs. » Matthew Poes in "what's more accurate a microphone or our ears?"

https://www.audioholics.com/room-acoustics/accurate-microphone-or-ears




«When we dont know how to use a tool, it is only a toy or a fad»-Groucho Marx

Suggest you check a dictionary. Because you must mean that there is no perfect resemblance. Because obviously there is resemblance.
You are right for sure, my word in english are not always well chosen....I only wanted to insist on the inevitable difference....I read myself a second time and i laugh at my "expression"....I apologize then and thanks for the correction...

😊
The MAIN  factor important to reproduce is timbre, especially voices timbre...We are programmed to recognize voices...If we had voices right all the rest come like balls on a thread...

And  there is no resemblance at all between live event and recording....This is not bad, nor good.... This is an explanable evident audible fact....

After timbre, all other acoustical factors are important but they depend of many factors, yes, electronical design of amp and speakers, are the first, but without acoustic control nobody will go very  far... 

For sure i suppose a recording where the original acoustical cues has been reproduced adequately to begin with....Many commercial music is acoustically  horrible...
youtube not useful for me, though. Either stream or LP
my pleasure if you enjoy them...

By the way i never listen on youtube it was only to give an idea....
This iranian ensemble with percussion and some other interesting instruments will help also and you will enjoy it....



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3z35HQBzvY&list=OLAK5uy_lsXokXU_pv596vy8nf85p2D_5oYsZYahg


 I will stop here but will near many thousand files i have many choices.... 😊
Another great thing to record is the human voice. We are all very familiar with that sound, and any "vowel" coloration (as J. Gordon Holt put it) will be glaringly obvious. WARNING: Most loudspeakers fail this demanding test. The QUAD ESL (introduced in 1957!) excelled in reproducing singing voices, setting a standard few other speakers to this day can match.
You are right for what you say about this Quad speakers...

But i will add something: all other speakers need more help from tuning room acoustic controls and they could reach some new level.... For sure each type of speakers are different, but no speakers are perfect on ALL acoustic factors even Quad...

We never listen to speakers, we listen to acoustically controlled or uncontrolled room/speakers....

But some speakers speak to us better than others in the same room....but adapt the acoustical settings of the room for each type speaker in particular and even our taste could change or be less affirmative...

No speakers beat the room says a great acoustician....

But i will repeat what you just said: QUAD is one of the greatest speaker ever designed...Precisely for the reason you said already....
For piano this one is one of the best to test piano tone playing...
And anyway also one of the best interpretation of Chopin Nocturnes by Hans Moravec...

(beware : the youtube file so good it is does not replace the original recording)

Piano is the only instrument on par with voices to test the rendering of an audio system...

Any amplified music is useless for that....Anyway with a great audio system able to communicate all " hues" of sound color,  some amplified instruments or electronic music  often  seems more a seasoning than a real meal....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHXxWfSAxik
"Commercial music" or very polpular one  is heavily processed even voices and with voice on a good system it may sound unnatural....


.I remain pleased with my systems dynamics, soundstage, detail, BUT am always wondering about TONE...
Human ears/brain are programmed by the voice timbre perception...

When i worked fine tuning for 2 years my acoustical treatment and other controls, and for the last month full time my mechanical equalizer, i listened instrument timbre playing a tone for sure.... But EVERYBODY know how must sound human voice.... A voice singing tone, for example using a choir recording with children, women and male, or opera singing.... This is the best test....

No need to be musician to recognize the natural human voice....Just use many voices type....


Try this one to begin with....Only four male voices very well recorded on youtube....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTdZ2cSkW0U


This opera is exceptionally well recorded.... The youtube file give an idea...

You can test ALL acoustic features with only this file : Timbre perception, soundstage, imaging, listener envelopment, source width....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qR33bL5aNTk&list=PLnQJF3Qi_4_CvjtOvZypmfmC4ygxSxOgm&index=52...

 If you listen the singers singing behind your back or walking and turning head when singing your system is good if not you lack acoustical control....