Thiel 2.3 vs 2.4 the real difference

"I have read about 8-10 magazine/web writeups and it has been highly praised."

Name one of those media outlets that ever said anything negative about any Thiel speaker or any product they reviewed.

Its pretty simple to figure out how they differ,

Just look at the Stereophile measurements of the CS2.3's versus the Soundstage measurements of the CS2.4 and one can quickly see the evolution between the two speakers. The CS2.4 plays with considerable less distortion and clarity than the CS2.3 and you may be right about is soun ding softer.ack of distortion will do that.

Bunker..posted

"I have one small restriction however. I think I would like a little bit more air or energy on top. Sounds pretty outrages with that common Thiels are bright 'knowledge'. I am afraid if 2.4 would contribute to even less open mellower sound."

You may need to calibrate your sense of reality, the CS2.3's are +10dB by the time they get to 20khz and +15 to 18 dB from 1 khz depending on the individual speaker. Now you can make your system sound any way you like but if your goal is a semblance of "accurate" you need to rethink your instincts and or maybe get your hearing checked just so you have a baseline for what you need your system to do.
Because you may very well be right about needing the tipped up highs. A hearing test will cost less than the 2.4 upgrade especially if for you it was the wrong move.

The more you know the better the decision you can make.

No weighting,

MLSSA, a computer program with B&K microphone and preamp

ETF with calibrated microphone and preamp

version 2.0 (not my system)

Version 4.7? (my system)

My speakers measured on Version 5.9 calibrated microphone.

Tim,

CD's are not recorded bright unless they are top 40 bound and my MLSSA and SoundEasy with B&K speaker measurement systems showed a dip and a rise on the four different pairs of CS2.3's I measured. In room response was ragged because off axis dips were high in Q causing excessive sibilance and other noises especially when the speaker was having to strain a little.

The CS2.3 was considerably brighter (to a fault) than any Sonus Faber, Dynaudio, Revel, Vienna Acoustic and Meridian speaker in the store. Personally I blame the lack of cone area as the biggest problem and distortion in the concentric driver.

"Look at the NRC graphs on www.soundstageav.com/avreviews... for interesting comparisons. Lots of speakers have, lets say, unusual concepts of flat. Thiel has no dip in the presence region that many do and thus come off bright by comparision."

I do...Lot's of speakers out there that aren't very good. and Remember I like the CS2.4 something I seem to not get credit for, that is a speaker that does it all very well. You will notice that the only instructions the NRC received from Thiel was the height at which the speaker should be measured. The CS2.4 is a complete design.

The CS2.4 enhances the Thiel reputation, the CS2.3 never was deserving of it and now never will be.

McTeague the question is again, should I upgrade? HELL YES!, just like the last thread. Defend your choice all you want,

Let's not forget the 100 or so people I witnessed laughing or giving me that look like they stepped in something after listening to the CS2.3. Actually most people hated that speaker and having to demo it hundreds of times over three years and moving it around to get it to "sound right". You represent the miniscule minority that bought the CS2.3.

Bufus, the measurements were done properly no worries, the speaker has a peak in the treble, this was constantly addressed by Thiel in the development of the concentric driver. Some upgrades were not announced or offerred as such. Funny thing is none of you guys ever measured the speaker so its not like you have data to the contrary just some supposition that I did something wrong. Its a bad speaker with many problems, CS2.4 corrects them all. My whole point buyer beware.

Depending on when the review was done will determine the response, heck if your CS2.3's are new then some changes could have happened after I stopped selling Thiels to inch it closer to where the CS2.4 is.

But one constant was a -4/-5 dB dip at or around 1200hz-1500hz and a rise of +4-+5 db through the 4K range which is a near +10 swing. in a narrow range of frequencies.

Last time I measured the CS2.3 was 2000, so that left 2 more years for changes.

Plus you are discounting the negative reaction of many, many clients. They listen they tell me what they think. What about them? That has a great deal to do with my stance, they weren't always so diplomatic as reviewers.

Tim, I'm not upset, and I realize I'm out of step with common lore on the speaker. Item: 1117244877 Take a look at a speaker I built and how it measures. I'm just an amateur, weird guy out of step with the world. But just so there's no misunderstanding what my expectations are.

David

Actually if you go to the item link below you can atleast see my speakers ATC SCM150, but alas I won't have a surround system till May when I move to my new place. So I'm short 5 channels right now. But I'm chomping at the bit to get My 7 Eton 11.2 AXM's built. Going to be a wicked system. I hate having to put "I'm a dealer" everytime I talk about my system.

I am upgrading My bedroom speaker to a sub satellite system using Morel/Peerless drivers. I'm in the process of building those no photos.

Item: 1117244877 , the third picture.

The little speakers on stands were custom made for my brothers theater and the big black speakers are custom made ATC SCM150's.


Not shown, ATC SCA2 and Meridian G08.

There you go

Thanks David,

They are pretty good, the square cabinet hurts the off axis response a little. They are warm sounding and maybe a little subdued in dynamics when not coupled to a subwoofer. My friend has the upgraded version with rounded baffles and grills and the Vifa Concentric tweeter which fixes many of the little details in the off axis performance and clarity in the highs. But these speakers are flat to 50 hz where I intended to pass the low frequencies off to a subwoofer. They have served me well. I have sold to 3 (5 speakers ea.) sets of these speakers to clients. And no complaints, infact 2 of them have upgraded to complete active systems.

I already sold the "upgraded ones" I mention in my System profile. These are the one pair I didn't upgrade.

There's a reason I carry the speakers I carry for Cinematic Systems. They are much better than what I can build myself considering the price. I figure since I'm a part time amateur, the pro's should be able to be better than me by a good margin. That's how I determine if I'm going to carry a speaker line or not.

"Both speakers have very little radiating area for their price/size, a 6.5" (cone-diameter) woofer and 2.5" mid, combined with the shallow crossover slopes and huge number of crossover components I feel limit their ultimate SPLs and microdynamic transparency"

Yes, my impression is the CS2.4 handles power better than the CS2.3's and is simply better behaved. Which is why I felt I could enjoy it more.

I want to qualify my early comments too, with this adendum (sp -1)

The last long term exposure to the CS2.3 was 2001, but 2000 production models, it is very if not certainly likely that Thiel has continued to improve their coaxial driver as they had from 1998 to 2001 and newer versions of the CS2.3 like a 2002 production model may very well be a fraction different from the CS2.4. So the variations may very well be a function of production time and version. Thiel will continue to improve their products (their right reserved) even if they don't change the model or version number.

Having not heard a CS2.3 for several years on a daily basis, hearing the CS2.4, it was a relief to hear a speaker I could actually listen too. Which is what struck me so black and white on this matter.