the sound of massed violins in classical orchestral recordings


why do massed violins have this sort of gritty sandpapery reverberation in classical orchestral recordings?even in some sections of a piece, when the violins are playing softly in the background, you hear that gritty overtone more than the melody.when I listen to the Houston symphony in Jones Hall,sitting fourth row, facing the violin section, I don't hear that sound.I have three systems { two of them mid-fi ] and I hear the same thing-even with headphones.in all instances, the other parts of the orchestra are clear.  my main system : Vanalistine Trancendence 10 tube preamp,a 35 year old solid state Proton D1200 amp, [have tried NAD,Project, Musical Fidelity amps--they don't sound any better],Onkyo dx7555 CD player [Stereophile class B],and Project Carbon turntable with Grado Black 2 cartridge [ the Ortophon Red was too bright ] through Magnepan MG12/QR speakers.Tried a highly regarded Elac speaker--no change as far as the violins go, but way inferior to those dramatic Maggies.So, there you have it. Is it the equipment? Is the state of the art not up to recording violins? Is it me? [its o.k.-I can take it}. In closing,a couple of years ago,I had phone conversation with a well known person associated with a major speaker company about this. His response :[ paraphrased ] Violins are a problem--don't like 'em.  Any input will be appreciated. Thanks.
6119
Very interesting thus far, and a couple of folks are close to the real answer.  I spent over 25 years as a symphony musician in a major orchestra, and then upon retirement, another 30 years as a recording engineer.  I hope these credentials might add some weight to my comments.
    If you stand next to a single violinist while they are playing, you can distinctly hear the horsehair of the bow and the rosin that is put on the bow making a totally non-musical noise.  It is the mechanics required to make any bowed instrument play that you hear regardless of how beautiful a tone the performer manages to extract from the instrument once that bow brings the strings into vibration.  The rich sound that we all crave to hear does not mostly emanate from the top of the violin.  The top of the violin is where most of the mechanical noise comes from because that is where the bow and the strings intersect.  The richest sound of the violin is given off by the back of the instrument.  On many occasions, I would place a microphone below and to the rear of a solo violinist to capture this rich sound.  A big mistake is to place microphones above and too close to the string section.  That most certainly results in capturing too much of the afore-mentioned mechanical noise.  Another factor is that not only the different timbres of each individual violinist, but the fact that they are almost never playing the same pitch. I'm relating this to pitch alone, not vibrato, which itself is a rapid changing of pitch. Think of it : Do you really think that the concertmaster in the front of the first violin section can hear what the player in the rear of the second violins is playing ?  Not only must they sit at a reasonable distance from each other to have enough bowing room, they must forego the luxury of sitting near to each other as the woodwind and brass sections can easily do.  Much of the "hash" that happens is micro differences in pitch caused by that very necessary seating arrangement.  The subtle differences in timbre of each instrument is also a consideration.  Woodwinds and brass also have an additional luxury, and that is that there is usually only one player on a part, not massed players like the strings.
     I once was asked by the concertmaster of my orchestra, why his home recordings of his playing didn't sound as rich as he thought he sounded to himself.  I pointed out to him that he was hearing a far more complex sound than anyone else possibly could because he had his instrument firmly clamped between his collarbone and his jaw which provided a "mainlining" effect directly to his hearing apparatus.  He heard overtones that no one, even someone standing beside him, could hear.
     It is truly remarkable that massed strings sound as good as they do when performed by a professional orchestra when considering all of the possible ways for this delicate balance to go awry.
     I recorded a lot of choral groups in my career and will guarantee you that any two sopranos in a group of ten who are singing even slightly out of tune with each other will produce the "hash" we all hate.  In my early days, I thought it was "phase distortion", where the signal was reaching different microphones at different times, but even by using a minimal number of microphones and keeping them at a respectable distance, the phenomenon persisted.  Again, as in a violin section, the more sopranos involved, the less able they would be to actually hear each other, compounding the problem.
     So, physics is involved, mechanics is involved and artistry is involved.
Just like you wouldn't want to remove the noise of Buddy Rich's sticks hitting his drumheads, you wouldn't want to remove the initiation of the string sound.   They aren't synthesizers, you know ?
     Definitely a fascinating subject !


Seems to me  orchestras I see on youTube are afflicted by numerous microphones much as society is afflicted with the virus--they are everywhere.  So there's all this mixing which means some of the subtlety of the sound gets lost.  There's a reason the old 2 and 3 mic recordings with the right mics have beautiful string sound.  They are capturing the sound in space  where the close miking expects a speaker to fill space like live music, but a speaker is directional and can't do that.
This is really an excellent thread that seems to get the best from the forum. Thanks!
My journey to get strings sound like you experience them live: (1) Add power conditioner (Shunyata Hydra alpha). Moderate effect. (2) Eliminate all 'polluting' clients with switching power supplies (apple airport, logitech remote). Obvious effect. (3) Add DualCore room correction with linear power supply. Pronounced effect. Replace B&W803D with Helsinki Gradients (i.e., dipoles with cardioid radiation pattern). Dramatic effect. Seems that room interaction was, at least in my situation, dominant parameter.
For reference, the amp in this system is a LSA Statement integrated, all ICs are Kimber Hero balanced, power cables are Kimber, speaker cables are DNM incl. DNM RF/EMI filters.
Good recordings are, as stated many times, a must.
For a close mic'd solo violin, Anne Sophie Mutter, Carmen Fantasy (Sarasate) - Introduction, is a great piece. For mass string, again, Anne Sophie Mutter, Violin Concerto No 1, B flat minor  (hi rez MQA file on TIDAL), seems a very good recording.
I am happy now...
Thanks to terraplane8bob for clarifying even further what other posts have been developing: it's in the recording. I'm sure there are components that exacerbate the problem and,hopefully, others that might ameliorate it.  We probably have diifferent goals for what we want to hear in our listening rooms. For me, if I don't hear something in the concert hall,I don't want to hear it coming out of my speakers--or less of it.Today,I revisited an old "frenemy": EMI Classics CD. von Karajan,Berlin Phil.,. Schubert Symphonies 8 and 9. ART,Abbey Road Technology."Remastered to 20 bit for optimum sound sound quality."Exciting,dynamic,moving performances.Awful, shattering,cacophonous strings.Sad. In a few days i'm going to be auditioning a used pair of Mozart Grand Symphony speakers [ what's not to love about a speaker with a name like that ]. If they can tame the Schubert just the slightest bit, the ever exciting Maggies may be put up for adoption. To be continued..........