the sound of massed violins in classical orchestral recordings


why do massed violins have this sort of gritty sandpapery reverberation in classical orchestral recordings?even in some sections of a piece, when the violins are playing softly in the background, you hear that gritty overtone more than the melody.when I listen to the Houston symphony in Jones Hall,sitting fourth row, facing the violin section, I don't hear that sound.I have three systems { two of them mid-fi ] and I hear the same thing-even with headphones.in all instances, the other parts of the orchestra are clear.  my main system : Vanalistine Trancendence 10 tube preamp,a 35 year old solid state Proton D1200 amp, [have tried NAD,Project, Musical Fidelity amps--they don't sound any better],Onkyo dx7555 CD player [Stereophile class B],and Project Carbon turntable with Grado Black 2 cartridge [ the Ortophon Red was too bright ] through Magnepan MG12/QR speakers.Tried a highly regarded Elac speaker--no change as far as the violins go, but way inferior to those dramatic Maggies.So, there you have it. Is it the equipment? Is the state of the art not up to recording violins? Is it me? [its o.k.-I can take it}. In closing,a couple of years ago,I had phone conversation with a well known person associated with a major speaker company about this. His response :[ paraphrased ] Violins are a problem--don't like 'em.  Any input will be appreciated. Thanks.
6119

Showing 13 responses by 6119

 the proton d1200 amp can produce 540w/1000w/1500w   20ms          '450w/650w/800w  100ms                                                                                 '380w/500w/520w  200ms                                                                               'duty cycle  500ms                dynamic headroom at 8,4,2ohms 7.3db    'should be able to easily handle any crescendo that Beethoven,Mahler,or Orff can dish out,n'est pas?
frogman:Shostokovich,Sym.No 5,Bernstein,N.Y.Phil. original pressing,ca 1960. Same recording, new pressing [very thin vinyl},same recording CD.All 3 rough, gritty strings. Rest of orch.clear,open spacious. Mozart piano concertos,Ashkenazy,Philharmonia,London ffrr [Decca],vinyl, recorded 1987.Open,spacious,brillant,clear piano,gritty strings.In this recording, when the strings are played hard, they sound almost silky:when played medium to soft, they have this spurious, sandpapery grit attached to them, like someone clearing his throat.In one section, the strings are following lightly behind the piano and they sound congested.
glevinson : Watcfed the wonderful video. I was surprised by how clear and listenable the sound was though the tiny speakers in my laptop! The beautiful playing, the articulate discussion.Very interesting about the old and new mics and their spacing and the eye opening description of the roles of engineer and producer in recording classical music. I hope that many of the posters here will watch this video. Thank you very much.
Thanks "no romance" and" millercarbon" for your articulate responses.What I have learned is that the phenomenon is real [ which, strangely,gives me a sense of  relief ] and it is formidable.I'm not sure I'm ready to go " on and on" at this stage of my life.Now that I know [ perhaps subliminally have always known ] I can better appreciate how far I have come from that portable Phonola I carried around some sixty years ago. I still get a thrill when those Maggies go full tilt Mahler!

P.S. Yes, I hear that artifact in solo voices and choirs, a kind of "rattle" from certain notes on the scale. Eileen Farrell Puccini Arias. What a voice! But on certain notes' kind of "cackle/crack"reverb. No problem with flutes....so far. Regarding "laid back", I remember reading some attractive things about the VANDERSTEEN 2CE Signature II. But now it seems to have disappeared and there is a Signature III,which no one has written about yet.Life goes on. I'm going to chill and put on some Brubeck on vinyl and then maybe some Keith Jarrett. Is vinyl better than CD.Dunno,but the ritual that used to irritate me back when is kinda fun now.
pwerahera:If you google PROTON D1200, you will see that it can deliver several hundred watts per channel. there is a tube demo showing how much power it is capable of.
sniff9 yes, as I mentioned, when starting this thread, I don't hear any of this roughness from the Houston Symphony in Jones Hall. I have often gotten a seat 2 to 3 rows back in front of the violins just to listen for it, since the phenomenon has been bothering me for years.When I attempt talk to audio salespersons about this, the usual response is "...don't know anyone here who listens to classical."
Perhaps this is Audio's dirty little secret, or as you put it more charitably, it creates "a significant strain on the technology."
Thank you all for your caring, thoughtful responses.I did an exercise today and wrote about it here in detail. I left the room for a moment and when I returned, Felicity,our dearly beloved cat was sitting on the laptop and all of my brilliant,insightful exposition was gone. I have a lot of respect for Felicity. Despite all warnings, she has never once shown any interest in the Magnepans and no matter how much Mahlerian angst is shaking the room, she lays down between the Maggies and goes to sleep. So here I go again. i have been listening to two CDs. The wonderful Samuel Barber Violin Concerto,Shaham,London Symphony,Previn,DG Digital,recorded 1993. Brahms Violin Concerto,Heifetz,Chicago Symphony,Reiner,recorded 1955,digital remaster,painstakingly adhhering to the original recording technique. This is what I heard.The violin solos were clear and "hash"free.The Barber solos were very up front, large and aggressive; the Brahms solos were further back. The string sections in both orchestras were equally "hashey","gritty".Interestingly,in both recordings,when the orchestras went very loud,the ''sandpapery hash" was much less evident,but as the volume began to recede,particularly in the Barber,the "hash" became more prominent.The softer the strings became, the more prominent the "hash". until It was louder than the melody and the "hash"was echoing in the right channel.It seems to me that this is an artifact of the complexity of the violin sound that Frogman and Millercarbon and others were referring to, a reverberation that probably dissipates quickly in the concert hall and goes unnoticed, but is locked [ trapped?] in the recording.So,I suppose, there is no panacea--a static reminder of the divide between life and synthesis like the dots [pixels ?] in photos that Frogman was referring to. What to do? For me it is ameliorate.
As has been suggested, components that are laid back,"forgiving."
Anathema to most audiophiles but very attractive to me. I'm suspicious of any component touted as "detailed."How much "detail"will I hear in the concert hall? How much do want to hear?
hypomam : thank you. your post makes sense and reinforces what several others have been saying.the problem is in the recording and you and others have made a strong case for the causes.i feel the best thing to do is to find components, amps and particularly speakers, that tend toward a softer, more distant presentation with out too much collateral damage. suggestions, anyone?
Thanks to terraplane8bob for clarifying even further what other posts have been developing: it's in the recording. I'm sure there are components that exacerbate the problem and,hopefully, others that might ameliorate it.  We probably have diifferent goals for what we want to hear in our listening rooms. For me, if I don't hear something in the concert hall,I don't want to hear it coming out of my speakers--or less of it.Today,I revisited an old "frenemy": EMI Classics CD. von Karajan,Berlin Phil.,. Schubert Symphonies 8 and 9. ART,Abbey Road Technology."Remastered to 20 bit for optimum sound sound quality."Exciting,dynamic,moving performances.Awful, shattering,cacophonous strings.Sad. In a few days i'm going to be auditioning a used pair of Mozart Grand Symphony speakers [ what's not to love about a speaker with a name like that ]. If they can tame the Schubert just the slightest bit, the ever exciting Maggies may be put up for adoption. To be continued.......... 
jrbirdman333: I'm a little slow--after all this time it suddenly hit me......"this a fascinating STRING".  P U N !!!