@hilde45
Too late, you've already become trapped, deep in the rabbit hole :)
I'be built most of my "tweaks". And I consider the chain of my system. Its only as good as its weakest link. And no point in putting one insanely strong link in that chain. With one caveat - is it something that can be moved forward if you start suffering from upgradeitis.
I'm in the middle of dealing with my TT. Isolation is the main thing I'm going to be dealing with over the next little while.
Not sure I have a specific methodology other than living with whatever I change for a while and see what I like, and what bothers me.
The big sorbothane semi circles I had under the TT as a quick thing so I could physically place the TT on my rack were deadening the sound. Was a bit flat. Made some spikes and put under it as a temporary fix until I decide to go with springs, some kind of pod, roller blocks or some kind of combo of the above. And will I need some kind of big isolation block under it as well.
I built my own rack as well. Double layer 3/4" ply used everywhere. With all the gear on it, it weighs in excess of 120lbs. It's going to be redone, not because of any audio issues I'm having, but the design doesn't work for my set up as it is now. When rebuilding, I will implement some modifications to the build and will be able to hear whatever difference it makes.
About to redo the wires in the tonearm. The ones in it are the original ones and I'm curious to see what happens to the sound when they are replaced. I have to open it up anyway as there is a slight buzzing/hum coming from it thats bothering me. Not audible with the ESL-57's, but very audible with the Cornwalls. As it's a TT I built - Lenco L70 heavy plinth - it is new to me (put into service a week or so ago) most of the wires I installed were good, but not exceptional. Again, I want to live with it for a while before I start changing out something that may or may not be necessary.
Up until this point, with this system, I have been doing tried and true "things". I built a basic "power bar/filter" using good quality sockets, wires and capacitors to aid in filtering noise on the AC line. Built the same filter for a friend and the noise floor dropped dramatically on his system. The rack is solid, and fairly dead acoustically. I've replaced all the "black plastic" IEC cords with 'better' heavy gauge cables and plugs. I've made new power cords for my ESL's as well as its own filtered socket. They are much quieter than before. All my interconnects are Kimber as are my speaker cables. I've had them for years and see no reason to swap them out. But, having said that, I am going to build some new interconnects using some quality wire/connectors and see what I hear before I move to change anything that gets costly. My speaker wires will also be done as an experiment to see what changes happen.
I've re-capped my main amp - EL34 based integrated - that I bought new in the early 90's. Opened it up immensely , blacker background and more transparent.
I had a 15 year hiatus from my audio interests - marriage/kids - and since the divorce 6 years ago, I have been returning to this hobby.
When I get this to a point of "done" (which it will never be...), I'm going to remove everything and listen for the difference.
To me, this is a journey. And its a journey where in between brief moments of "adjusting", I get to lose myself in music.
In a nutshell. I live with things for a while to get accustomed to them, then I listen acutely to what is good, what is too much or too little.
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04-20-2021 11:42pmHow about being so dogmatic you bring up measurements, even though they were never mentioned, only ears.
Just completing the unspoken subtext here
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04-20-2021 10:19am
"Point being to encourage more humility and less dogmatism. " Right. So, what is more dogmatic? Saying trust your own ears, let them tell you what you hear, on your own system in your own room using your own judgement combined with years of experience figuring what kind of sound you like and knowing how to attain that? Or is it the measurement pushers? If there is no measurement difference then there is no difference?I can't see how saying "try it, see if you like it" is dogmatic. Saying "Why would I try it, it doesn't measure any different" is considerably more so.And the naysayers who have not tried, and who use some kind of "science" to justify their closed minded beliefs? Do you need the sugar content of two different Granny Smith apples to know they taste different?
Dogmatic...
I recently finished building a heavy plinth Lenco L70. Last week when I put it into my system, I put it quickly on some large half round sorbothane "bits". (Have not yet decided if I'm using springs, roller blocks or some kind of pod) After doing my tonearm set up, I was finally able to actually listen to the TT. Was lacking in dynamics. Pulled the sorbothane and replaced with some spikes I fabricated quickly using baltic birch, steel spikes and aluminum bases. Huge difference. Old ears? I can hear the second hand of my watch sweep through my pillow. And I know what to listen for in my system. Perhaps, you should consider approaching this subject with a bit more humility...
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@jpeters568
Thank you for being open to considering these things.
I live with changes, adjustments, components in my system for a while so as to become numb to the changes. I need to hear the thing for what it is, what I like and what I dislike. That takes some time for my brain to shift to the new norm. Then I make changes.
It's not like its a lot of work anyway, I'm always listening to something be that radio - while working or driving, my DAP if on the subway or traveling, mostly vinyl when "enjoying music" and for convenience (and cost), digital when I try to seek out new music.
Did some listening tests - speed listening yes - to a bunch of vintage amps that a friend had going through his place for one reason or another. Differences were not subtle. Ranging from bright and thin, to dark and bloated, from dynamic to a bit flat. It also happens that he has a ton of speakers in his place of differing designs, styles and sizes. (which I built). The "winner" of the amps, the one we preferred changed with which speaker it was mated with. So, decisions were made about which amp should stay based on removing the least interesting one of the bunch as well as the most "exciting". Interesting side note. I built him a pair of 8" full range horns (took some convincing as his main speakers were British stand mounts) My reasoning was I could build him another 3 way, but why? He already has one, why not go in a completely different direction and see what you think? He agreed to the 74"X14"X17" double back loaded horns. Are they particularly "accurate" from a measurement stand point? No. I also convinced him to buy a Heathkit tube amp from 1963, as a cheap experiment. I replaced the main power cap for him to get rid of the severe hiss, that was it. Again, flawed? for sure! However, the synergy between the big horns and that little 8watt amp is stunning. So much air moving, so open and transparent, so lively and present, yet in no way fatiguing at all.
In that set up, he was running some rather "cheap" interconnects. I built some new wires for him (nothing extravagant, but properly made) and they did reduce the noise (better shielding) and were more "open"in the presentation.
A lot of gear has gone through his place during the past year (covid...) but the Heathkit and the double horns remain. But, they can not be used as a reference tool, because their signature is so unique. He has 10 pairs of various enclosures for 4" drivers. They are all vastly different. The electronics are for sure the biggest part of the listening, tweaks to a lesser degree for me, but it all matters and all adds up.
After spending time setting up a system, tweaks and all, if you were to suddenly remove all the little details, there would be a void left in the sonics.
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@edgewound
What?
Tweaks are not something that have to be overcome!
Lets see... The components need to sit on top of something. Hmmm, do they sit atop a rickety old chair, or a solid platform?
Tweak one...
Now, to better control vibration, both inside and outside of the gear, some kind of isolation would be useful.
Tweak two...
These things all run on electricity. Not sure how clean the power is in my place, so some kind of protection/filter is likely a good idea.
Tweak three...
Now, I have to connect these components to the power. I'm going to get a well made cord that uses good materials and is properly assembled as opposed to some wire that was thrown together with plastic encasing it which was done by a giant machine designed to produce the most cost effective product possible.
Tweak four...
Now, I have to run the signal from the source to my amplifier. Now I know that small electrical signals are subject to interference from electrical noise, so I'm going to get some good interconnects that are shielded to preserve the integrity of that tiny signal. Don't want it getting muddied or distorted by this noise.
Tweak five...
My speakers are stand mounts. Going to need to put them on something. That sideboard is not such a great idea, its a big open box, and I'm sure the sound isn't going to benefit from that big open "bass bas" underneath. Stands are probably a good idea.
Tweak six...
Those speakers are going to be shaking a lot. Think I'm going to put something between them and the stand so as they vibrate, they move in such a way as to not fight with themselves. Want as much clarity as possible from them.
Tweak seven...
Going to have to connect them to my amp. They are really efficient, so its probably a good idea to buy some decent speaker cable. They are going to enhance any distortions because of their sensitivity, so no lamp cord here.
Tweak eight...
So edgewound, explain to me where the hurdle is here that needs to be jumped, or overcome?
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@jpeters568
Not claiming we can hear better, just that we can listen better.
No one is claiming "Huge differences", just differences.
No one tweak is coming to shatter your audio experience, however, when all put together, they add up to something more.
You know, the whole is greater than the sum of its parts? And a big thing is just a lot of little things put together?
What of any of these tweaks have you tried?
And what are you doing on this forum if you are not open to experimenting with these things? Western empirical logic is not the be all and end all of existence... |
@oregonpapa
Thank you for that. The difference between hearing, and listening.
Put an omni directional mic in a busy room. Play it back. Try do isolate any conversation and follow it. Not so easy to do. It hears everything, and listens to nothing.
However, if in the room, with visual cues and listening, its possible to filter through the noise. Although, I do find it quite difficult lately.
Put the same omni mic in the middle of the orchestra, and you're going to have a similar challenge isolating elements.
But, wether in that room with a live orchestra, or listening to the same properly recorded performance at home (key word is listening...) elements can be isolated with ease.
Listening is a skill, hearing is a matter of biology... |
@jpeters568.
I’ve brought this up many time to help illustrate my point. Take two capacitors from two different manufacturers, exact same specs, exact same measurements. Sound different. Do the same with two tubes. They sound different.
Shouldnt matter, I agree, but yet, it does. Why? Don’t know, don’t care. If I replace something, or change something up, I live with it for a while. Then I consider what is missing, or what there is perhaps too much of. Then I make a change again and listen for changes.
If you are watching a film of poor video quality, after a little while you don’t notice that bad quality so much. The mind compensates - especially if it’s a film that has captured your interest.
Same holds true for sound. If I’m trying to tune a bookshelf speaker after having been listening to electrostatics, it’s going to cause some problems. So, I live with them for a while, let my brain adjust before I listen critically and attempt to make changes. |
@crustycoot
I would sooner trust someone who has a lot of experience at listening than someone who has pristine hearing but doesn't know what to listen for.
Suspect your colleagues are asking because they trust your listening skills.
So, keep on keeping on! |
@edgewound
Lets check your response.
At what point does a rack become snake oil? Are roller blocks, Isoacoustics, Springs snake oil? Power filtration? At what point does it become a "hurdle" and take away from the purity? What about cables? What are "good enough"? At what point do they stop getting better?
I'll skip ahead...
Better grounding tech? Better outlets? Cable risers? Schumann resonators? Helmholtz resonators? Diffusion panels? Absorption panels
At no point to any of these things, or any other tweaks, become a hurdle for your audio experience to have to work around. They do not in any way "mess" with the so called purity of the signal.
When people buy these products, they are not using your money. And why do you feel you are superior to all those who use these products and can experience the differences in their systems? Who died and made you the protector of all us "victims"? Not spending your money, if the products don't do what they should, the bulk of these companies will take them back. But you, you know better than all of us, right? Because you have tried all these things, listened for differences. Not better or worse, that is subjective, but differences.
If you have tried any of these things, please, enlighten us and share how you arrived at this knowledge that none of us understand.
Whack...mole...
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@jpeters568
My whole thing is "just try it". If it doesn't make a difference, then you are good!
And because one person doesn't hear any difference, doesn't mean another who says they do are a victim of marketing.
Quick story to illustrate my thoughts on hearing vs listening.
I've been working on a speaker for a bit. A project I've been mulling about for a few months. Experimenting with a coax driver and a capacitor less crossover. Was trying to decide between two values of the resistor (8.2 ohm and 10 ohm). The high end was different. One went higher, but was missing the bit just below, the other didn't go as high but held the info up to that point. There was a distinct difference to my ears.
I wanted an "unbiased" and "uninterested" opinion. I asked my 8yr old son to listen. Now, he has fresh ears and can hear a fly fart next door... He heard the clarity of the speakers, and commented on that. I asked him if he could describe what the differences were and if there was one he liked better as I A/B'd the speakers for him (Mono - L/R channels). He couldn't. I asked if he could hear a difference. He couldn't.
Hearing is biology. Much like sense of taste is biology. Listening is a skill, something learned or taught. Like taste, being able to isolate nuances is very much a skill.
Prior to Covid hitting, a friend was going through cancer treatment/surgery. He was unable to work for the better part of two years prior to Covid arriving. He was scheduled to have his final surgery but that was canceled due to the pandemic. He is a chef, and when Covid arrived, he got pretty down. I started fixing his stereo so he could listen to his vinyl collection. The transformation in his ability to listen for nuanced changes in a speaker build/tuning is astonishing. (I've built a lot of speakers for him). He is 64 and we often joke about the biological limits our age has put on our hearing. He is listening with far greater acuity than ever before.
I feel like this is a journey, and not a destination. |
@edgewound.
You didn’t address why you have taken it upon yourself to save us all from ourselves?
And that we are somehow incapable of listening/deciding for ourselves?
Or if you have tried tweaks at home in your own system?
But you know better than us what we can hear... |
@dletch2
You seem to really have a problem with marketing?
Ive spent the bulk of my working life in the advertising industry. At the best, I’m helping to inform people about something that can somehow help them in their day to day lives. At the worst, I’m trying to convince someone of the importance of something they have zero need for.
Marketing claims, and the hype that goes along with them, are like water off a ducks back to me.
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@edgewound
Once again, you missed the point.
I didn't say that I lied about what something did in order to achieve this. I didn't present anything in a way that said something did something it actually didn't - I worked to convince people to get something they didn't need.
Big difference...
Take a minute, and think about what you are reading in stead of simply reacting to it
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@kevn
Distortions, I listen for distortions first.
Silence in a system is a good thing when there is no signal. Turn it up with no signal with everything hooked up and turned on. The nature of the hiss will be a clue as to what is causing it.
Sibilance is a useful one. Nina Simone has a certain way of presenting sssss's. And for whatever reason, when recorded this part of her singing can get quite shrill when played back. I listen for how much clarity there is in those parts.
When listening to mids, I listen for transparency and how "bright" "crisp" they are. Also, they can be placed slightly higher or lower in the register.
When listening to bass, I look for a sharp, tight bass. It can get muddy real easy.
Try running a 60hz tone through the set up. Sit where you sit and listen to the timber of the bass. Then walk around the room. It will at some point become a droning mess, at other points it will almost vanish. There will me a place where it sounds really good. This is where room treatments come in to play. The room is not easy to control and as it has been said many times, it's the biggest part of the system.
Try moving where you sit, try moving the speakers so you get the bass to sound the way it did when you walked around the room.
A lifestyle system, where you are filling the room with sound, is a different kind of challenge.
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@glupson.
A poet, he is not as of yet :) |
@glupson.
He’s 8. What do you think he said?
”Daddy, they’re really clear sounding” |
Oh, and its the main version of Going Under on the K&D sessions... |
@kevn
I have a couple of tracks I listen to for mids.
Leonard Cohen - A Thousand Kisses Deep
He has a deep voice normally, but it's particularly deep on this track. The upper register of his voice is what I listen to. I listen for how open it is.
Sade - Pearls
She has a wide range in her singing on this track. Starts dark and rich and goes to some lovely highs. I listen for how clearly the middle part of that comes through
Rockers HiFi - Going Under
Like most electronic music, it has some extremes. Singer again has a dark register. I listen for how well the upper range of his voice comes through.
Bill Charlap - Stardust
Shirley Horns voice has a ton of air in this recording. I listen for how well it "floats" above the instruments.
And, of course, anything Ben Webster :)
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@drew_k
Jealous!
Cant get my 14yr old daughter to pay attention to anything that has to do with my stereo. She lives for music too!
Guess I’m going to have to endure her tracks if I want her to listen...
Built her some speakers and got her a small amp for her room.
She managed to pay attention long enough to decide which one of the three sets on offer she wanted. Picked the one with the most bass of course... |
Hearing varies from person to person. Thats a given. My hearing, like my sense of smell, taste, vision, touch they all vary day to day. Does your morning coffee/tea/vodka taste the same every day?
I maintain a fairly regular and stable diet. Don't drink or partake in the MJ. Some days, my set up sounds absolutely amazing.
Other days, I wonder what the hell am I doing with this stuff, it sucks! Its dull, lifeless, zero depth. Everything has to go. Gotta start from scratch.
Then, after I remove the IEM's I forgot about, everything is right in the world again :)
We are organic, not digital or analog. Our senses are not constants in the universe, they vary.
Perhaps, tweaks/adjustments/components should only be critically listened to on the days when our hearing is at its best. But I suspect its like a leaky roof. Not going out there in the rain to fix it, and when it's sunny, who wants to fix the roof when you can just bask in the sunlight.
Or great sound.... |
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