Atmosphere > as the power goes down the sound improves.
Blindjim > Atmosphere thanks so very much Lemme see If I am getting this correctly.
Many or all of the output tubes predominately used in SET amps more or less, possess about the same electrical criteria, bandwidth,linearity, so the apparent sound or voice we hear from various Triode amps output tubes comes mainly . as the result of how well or badly they match up with the transformer being used, and how much they are being pressed to output power?
I will suspect too, the limitations of pouwer output makes their transformers either larger or smaller by comparison to other Triode output tubes.
Lower power = Better sound.
OK. Period paragraph?
I know the A’gon bottom line here… “ya gotta try it or them to really know”. Fine. I’m merely looking for directions now, not whose name gets put on the check or to whom I hand the plastic.
PP amps are certainly an option for me.
Here’s my inference….
Every pre or amp (s) I’ve owned was a transformer coupled arrangement.
In previously owned multi tube line stage fully balanced preamp, and one entirely SE, switching in and out the same tube type, but from a different era or from another Brand, always changed the sound.
Sometimes the performance being realized was improved too, not always though. At times, the gains were marginal, sometimes though, immense. Those earmarks were more silky, more or less smoother, more bottom end, more or less dynamic, more or less perceived extension.
It was either that or I’m deaf as well as nuts.
I swapped out 6922s to other brand 6922s and the sonics were altered. I switched out 6922s for 7308s (an electrically appropriate replacement tube) and the change was not subtle. Only the era of the tubes were different, otherwise, they were the same maker, Amperex.
In that same preamp I replaced RCA or Phillips ? 6L6 with Tungsol 5881s and again, there was improvement in several areas.
In the SE preamp merely replacing the 12AT7s and 12AX7s from JJs to RCAs to Amperex Bugle Boys, realized an increase in performance each instance, respectively. The Amperex BBs unquestionably were the top choice for overall performance increase.
Once more in a pair of mono blocks using EL34s in Ultralinear, moving out the JJs to CED Winged Cs made me a much happier camper.
Even when an amp was running in Ultralinear I preferred the EL34 to a KT 88 amp of similar output and expense.
.
Along the way, I have seen thru various brands and iterations, each tube model had a specific or IMO indemic fingerprint on the sound and its presentation albeit to lesser or greater degrees. Always however, the flavor of the sound became altered with the rolling in and out of even likewise tubes.
Other tubes came and went I simply do not recall them all, but my rationale for posting this question or inquiry for feedback on Output tube ‘Flavors’ was the direct result of those experiences.
Enjoying the sound of ‘glass’ from my experiences a good bit more than what I’ve heard from completely SS powered affairs, I’m nearing the cross road of making the choice to go this way or that with a projected system build. Tube power, tube and SS power, or simply go all in and use tubes for control and power on limited funding so only one option is possible.
… and we’re back to the original Q… which 6550, 300B, EL34, KT88, 211, etc., is it going to be?
As such, and it seems tubes have the present vote, then Which tube preamp would be a likely prospect for me with my musical preffs which range greatly?
I can only surmise, it will likely be PP, not single tube power amp.
Kenny. > more of your setup info is needed.
Blindjim > I’ll be needing speakers and amp (s). other items too for sure, but mainly those two items to begin.
Medium sized room (14W x 20L X 9H) closed off completely. This will certainly change to a somewhat larger overall room too. I’d opt in for one a bit wider to 16 or 17ft, and about the same for depth, 20 – 23ft. or so.
Listen to everything but Rap, Hip Hop, and what is being called present day R&B, but I do like old school RB. Not big on show tunes, opera or classical just now, but I do enjoy some. Defaults are CW, Folk, Americana, Blues, RB, Classic Rock, some POP. Not keen on curren themes on many of the standard genres. Even country ain’t country any longer. Love bluegrass. Singer songwriters like Simon, Morrison, Chapman, Baez, Prine, Zimmerman, Stapleton, EJ, Cash, Yokam, etc. Jazz, Reggae, and solid Rock bands such as AC/DC, Def, Zepplin, Airplane, Santana, and so on. Big bands doing jazz and R&B, and Rock. And others.
Speakers are as well another Question mark if a tube amp does get elected. Otherwise, I’ve a short list for those speakers I’d think a solid choice, all of which appear to need or enjoy significant power and or ‘damping.
All of them will be off the table if I opt for another tube amp or amps.
A great concern is acquiring a ‘too lush’ sounding triode amp or amps that are counterintuitive to the genres I dig. And, or being forced into buying horns for this or that amp and then being sentenced to life with the pairing or taking an enormous loss on a later sale of either or.
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Whart > If you are asking about SET amps, I don't think the question of speakers is a secondary one.
Blindjim > Thank you. you are indeed correct on the synergy factor. I’m in the assimilating information role currently on both ends of this enigma. , er, project.
Speakers are IMO way more sexy and impossible to ignore in a room. I feel too, they are the only items one should see or hear as the electrical gear needs be sequestered into an adjacent room or space as is my present circumstance.
BTW… which Horns?
Grannyring > The sensitivity of the speaker is vitally important
Blindjim > Thanks Grannyring. Very grateful for the affirmation. Got it.
It works the other way ‘round too. In fact, once I quit being stubborn and dive into the tube amp (s) path, speaker types and their attributes will be forced into renegotiation. I suspect then, both amp and speakers will be bought or ordered in simultaneously, each with the other well in mind.
RE driving to concert levels.
This is hardly an issue for me sure I’ll kick things up to an average of in room db levels to 94 or 95db…. For one song, maybe two. That’s all. Perhaps a few songs will get some more watts beyond avg. levels, but I’ve noticed with the loss of vision and some maturity, I’m no longer attracted to loudness for the sake of loudness alone.
it actually hurts.
Usual listening levels are just above being able to casually talk to someone else in the room, requiring the sound be turned down or muted to do so. So somewhere in the mid 80s maybe. Never bothered to test it when I had the chance or did and then forgot...
Which ever match up gets the nod, it will be more than capable of handling these isolated events.
I’m nuts, not insane and I would sort of like to keep the hearing I still possess in tact. In fact, if I’m at a location and the levels are tremendous I’ll probably leave regardless how much I might love the performers. Ordinarily I’m only going to outdoor shows, in the evenings or from Nov to Apr., when possible.
Lengthy streams of screaming wailing instruments and singers have slipped into the ether leaving me fondly and forever behind their wake. They are but intermittent blasts from the pasts these days.
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charles1dad > you have to consider your options simultaneously.
Blindjim > Appreciate it greatly Charles. Somehow A’gon slipped my post out of order, or your post got up too late. Anyhow, yep. Agreed. See above on the ‘simulcast’ episode..
charles1dad > I suspect that you’d be very pleased with a moderately powered class A push pull tube
blindjim > Mebbe so. Somehow I’ve fallen in lust with some speakers that simply don’t love tubes for whatever reason. Oh, they say they are OK with tubes, but their IMP drops say differently… so do their owners and reviewers.
Life seems so much more simple when all that is needed is to lay two very nice 400 – 500 wpc monos in between a pair of upper range speakers, kick back and dig the tunes… which is my default plug and play system choice.
Never go into the big room!!!
kdude66 > I can relate to just about everything you have said,
Blindjim > sorry to hear it. So, how many shrinks do you see each week? All of mine quit.
kdude66 > I have Tekton double Impact speakers and Linear tube audio Zotl 40
blindjim > You are the second person to mention those two items to me this week. Are you involved in any conspiratorial activities lately? lol
Is the Linear tube a Dave Berning design?
where can anyone hear these two items together or at all?
kdude66 > ,300b,45,2a3 have slightly different sound to my ears
“…. big pwr transmitter tubes that I've heard or owned generally sound quite similar with not very noticeable difference in sonics.”
blindjim > huge thanks for the insightful input. I tend to agree, right or wrong on the near audible sameness of higher output tube amps.
Whart - the horns are Avantgarde Duos which I have since around 2006
Blindjim > thank you. I don’t doubt for a minute that pair is very nice.
Inna > think about these…
Blindjim > thanks so much. Input like yours has been invaluable.
Despite my affinity for tubes, so far, only in Ultralinear with modest high eff speakers, one fact remains constant. What ever the amp is, IT MUST BE AUTO BIASING.
I can no longer bias amps, nor do I really want to.
Its been obvious to me for a bit now I’m going to have to go where a lot of gear is available to see and hear. The more, the better. A show seems in order.
There are a couple venues in my area that I am aware of which carry good inventories, albeit, not sure what would be ready to hear at any given moment. Or, if anything there would be of considerable interest. Although, I’m gonna stay as open minded this time as is possible.
I’ve read tons of stuff on INT amps both tube and SS. Gryphon and Ayon appear to have an awful lot going for them in the 300 & Triton III, respectively. Only the latter amp applies here.
I’ve read so much it is confusing now.
These past few posts have been revealing. I’m deeply grateful for them all.
Physical style or build is not much of an issue for me. As long as it doesn’t look run over by a train or herd of migrating Guinea Pigs, all will be well.
Ralph uncovered the point I’ve been missing for a very long time…. The lesser the power, the better the sound. Sure seems like it to me.
One item no one mentioned yet is noise. Ultra high eff speakers amplify noise too. Keeping the power line and ancillary electronics noise quiet is another matter that can crop up or needs be addressed when in those scenarios.
Its akin in my opinion to the noises generated by turn table playback systems by the record itself.
They ain’t all perfectly silent apart from the recording itself!!
For me, this is going to take some re-thinking. Perhaps SET ownership for me ought to be on a lesser scale as a secondary system. That would be pretty do able. Two ways on a lower budget, and maybe a 300B or EL34, all in a much smaller room like an office.
Done on a much smaller scale, avoiding PP amps would be much easier.
I had planned on a smaller secondary rig anyhow.
We’ll see.
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kdude66 > All the Linear tube audio gear is greatly influenced by David Berning and has his blessings Offcourse.
Blindjim > ROTFLMAO 8-)….. THANKS. VERY COOL, Where is LTA home base?
Inna > Please listen to Ypsilon; Gryphon Diablo and the 300.
Blindjim > thanks. I went and read the Fremer article after much trouble to do so. Liked what was said about the really expensive amp he had some primary input tube or bias issues. There are a couple really valid concerns for me with the mentioned amps herein.
Barring it’s a bit off topic, First, is money. Second is value in the secondary market. Yes. These are reputedly ‘destination’ ish items. But I’ve been around long enough to know I need to be around a lot longer, and very few presupposed ‘keeper’ anythings seldom become exactly that.
Lastly, its getting to hear any of them in any suitable setup without contracting guides, bearers and a Shaman to get there.
Atmosphere > Once you settle on a particular power tube type, then you sort out which brand of that tube to get. The choice of power tube type is heavily dependent on which speaker you get!! …or want.
A good system should **never** sound loud!
the speaker simply has to have the efficiency such that you don’t exceed about 20% of full power of the amp you have in mind.
Blindjim > Much respect and immense gratitude for the knowledge. Truly.
However…. Perhaps it was the choice of words used. Not sure. Maybe this is theoretical only.
Employing the philosophy that an amp should not or perhaps never, exceed 20% of its rated output to adequately propel the speakers SPL to satisfying levels gives me great pause.
In a perfect world? This means your 60wpc monos are actually 12wpc monos if applied correctly??
Superficially, it should give many audiophiles great pause now, or going forward an entire resetteling of standard system building notions and themes in tact presently, and from years back. Well, from the ‘90s anyhow are suddenly unceremoniously banished forthwith.
Under your inference, we should now consider the new shiny expensive 100wpc amp is only a thoughtfully applied 20wpc amp is gonna be a real tuff pill to swallow. It’ll break a lot of hearts. Not to mention wallets as folks begin scrambling for new larger amps, or easier to run speakers. Or both.
Still more pointedly, the overwhelming majority of loudspeaker makers should be shivering in fear of such a notice for amenable amp & speaker combos has abruptly evaporated until they redesign things so their 83 to 92db units get with Jenny Craig and reduce their dudgeon dwelling impedance curves to slimmer sleaker heights, whiole at the same time increasing sensitivities into triple digits.
20% of rated power. Whoa! That’s a pretty strong edict. But OK. I’m probably missing something important.
Lastly, that good sounding rig ought never sound loud really jiggles my jelly. “…. Hath sounds to soothe the savage beast”.
Now there is a decided dissimilarity between a speaker playing loudly and a speaker ‘shouting’.if that was the actual meaning in your remarks on what a rig should never sound like.
Occasionally, them thar “soothing” sounds are loud ones. Albeit here, everything is subjectively accounted. Although in room SPLs averaging more than 90db simply must be considered loud as an example. Practically speaking much less very likely.
I’ve gotta have a stereo that provides soft, normaland loud sound, or yields a substantial degree of variance in SPLs.
I want more than a quarter inch of spin on the volume knob to go from low to OMG!
IMHO, my home audio rig is NOT doubling as a PA system or a back up for the local sports stadiums. Yeah. I doubt they’re using enormous amounts of watts there either. Just horns.
300Bs = 2 wpc and then stop!! Wow.
What am I missing?
Looks like I need to revisit Google for the graph on watts and DBs and SPLs.
I’m not going to sleep well tonight. Maybe ever again.
wolf_garcia > rolling tubes …. …. I've noticed differences between rectifiers…234B, GZ34, and a 5Y3S…. and output tubes including KT88, KT77, KT150, 6550, and parts of an old toaster
blindjim > hahaha…. lovely. 2 slicer or 4.
Its great to have amps like that one. I always get the ones that cost so much to roll with it becomes a scary prospect to do so. One can only give so much blood each week darn it.
On distortion in recordings
A fella who told me he was a studio musician back in the 60s said ‘at times’ a more than good bit of the music was mixed for playback on automotive dashboard speakers. Plain old car speakers sitting in as monitors. Why? Because that’s where 90% of the music was going to be played.
The first thing I did in my old Chevy was to throw in a pair of Jensen 6x9s, and a Craig Power play FM & 8 track 20wpc deck. Smoking loud rig.
The more often I recall this conversation the more I think there was more to it than why much of the pop and rock and RB songs were so poorly recorded well into the early ‘90s, and beyond.
I’d guess it was lable concentric, and or artist predominate. Better lables and more popular artists recordings I’ve heard even today, sound better than those of the ‘rest of the herd” even off the same lable. Some labels don’t have as great a disparity across their artists, but the big guys do seem to get the better engineers and studios… until they buy their own houses.
Many acoustic recordings going back a long ways still sound pretty good. Electric powered instruments have had a tuff row to hoe for decades.
Thank God for mobile devices and PC desktop rigs. That’s where its more about content than fidelity. Play the bad stuff there.
Apple is still missing the boat in lieu of the onslaught of HD and lossless music and the resurgence of new or even other formats apart from Apple’s proprietary formats… and they will continue to do so until their base quits buying compressed tunes thru their IOS devices. In essence, “… its going to be a long, long time”. As Sir Elton once sang
Thankfully too, jazz and jazz vocalists always seemed to be done pretty well, then and now.
Pink Floyd sounds bad?
Unabashed blatant Heresy!
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has anyone established a reasonably current list of High Eff spkrs anywhere?
All I can think of are: Zu; Coincident; deVor; Avant Gard and some horns, which I sure don't mean to dengrate at all. it is merely their esthetic that is a tad hard to take.
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Grannyring > The trying not exceed 20% of an amp's power was specifically mentioned by Ralph for SET tube amps …. His statement does not include SS, Class D, OTL and other type amps.
Blindjim > thanks a lot. Now that makes more sense. I knew I was missing something. Just like the part on “lower power, better sound”.
saki70 > Have you given any thought to PSET's ? in your area, Where would you go to hear different tube amp demonstrations? Good Luck .
blindjim > thanks. The learning experience continues and that is always enjoyable. Getting there is another story.
Yes. In fact higher output tube amps or PP amps were and are my only exp with tube amps I have owned. They are the first amps I thought about before trying to learn more on the SET platforms, so I might minimize or eliminate a very big mistake.
As well, the PP glass amps just made more sense given the speakers I was admiring or dreaming about. All had or have mostly decent Eff, but low IMP.
The only SET ish amps I’ve heard to date were the Thor TPA30s at. a dealership in Clearwater largo area. Years ago. In a room near my size, they were driving a pr of VR4 JR pretty well. I’ll never forget that sound.
Apart from that joint, there are not any venues I know of nearby at all. Friends in a local club have some tube gear but its not the more prevalent setup. Most there like Panel speakers and Pass amps. There are likely others I’ve not met that may have glass power running. One was using AR lots o watts amp tube monos to drive their panels with, another was using Avant Gard Unos.
My ‘radar’ is on for any and all Triode and Ultralinear amps, INT, MONO or 2ch.
Atmosphere > This is all about distortion, which all amps make so the ’percentage of usable output power’ has to do with the **kinds** of distortion that are particularly objectionable to the human ear. These are the higher ordered harmonics (5th and above, particularly the 7th), IM distortion, and in the case of class D, inharmonic distortion (caused by intermodulations with the scanning frequency; similar to aliasing in digital audio).
Its my opinion and also my experience that four ohms has no place in high end audio (IOW if high quality audio production is in fact the goal). The cables are more critical and all amps sound harsher and less detailed on four ohms as opposed to eight or sixteen all other things being equal.
Blindjim > Whew!! Super. Got it now. Thanks.
Nearly every spkr I’m growing more fond of have 4ohm IMP!! So its appropriate to echo Charleton heston, kind of, “Damn you speaker makers! Damn you all to Hell!” lol
Atmosphere perhaps you could PM me or enter a link to which speakers your exp has shown are amenable to lower powered glass amps. Certainly, yours and perhaps others too.
My usual approach before this thread was to force a #12 foot into a #10 shoe, amp & spkr, respectively. Merely Add more watts to either overcome the low IMP of the spkr and try to avoid .clipping and or distortion, or with easier spkr loads yield better driver control. Control is an often overlooked facet. Its undeniable when listening however, if its absent.
I’d sure like to see a chart that reveals the equivalency between glass watts and SS watts. SET; OTL; PP; etc.
If tube amps could only manage higher damping factors it might make this affair an easier task.
I’m looking at or trying to figure out just which road, and then which block to land on by making one upscale purchase, and be done. Not at all a ‘cost no object’ affair, but then a ‘destination’ for me, may not be a or the destination for you, though we will both wind up with our own destination arrangements. Unless we just can’t leave well enough alone.
It do get complicated once all the factors are taken into account trudging down the road of better sound. Rooms, $$$$, esthetics. Amp & spkr matching. Topologies. Personal preffs. Logistics. Auditions. Sheesh.
charles1dad > The irony is that the vast majority of high End speakers are in the 4 ohm range. I do believe Ralph's assertion that higher speaker impedance is beneficial to all amplifier topologies. It seems many speaker builders would disagree with him given the predominance of 4 ohm speakers in the marketplace.
Blindjim > sure seems like it to me too as nearly every one on my short list is 4 ohms. Over 90DB but still….
And NONE of them are under $14K, several are above that point. Well above it.
wolf_garcia > Silverline Preludes (allegedly 91 db) with 2 REL subs You can simply turn the amp up to test the limits (at a certain point it just loses it's mind… absolute clarity at the levels I choose to listen, and I'm very picky about noise and distortion
blindjim > My previous Silverline Sonata IIIs were relatively an easy spkr to push too. Current iterations in that line up have just lost their ever loving minds with price increases. OMG.
Congrats with the Pre’s & Rels. You bring up a great point saying two subs are in use.
Swampwalker > It was this whole issue of sounding "loud" when a system should not sound loud when turned up. Rather, the performance should simply swell and grow with greater impact etc....
Blindjim > Illuminating! About exactly what I needed to see/hear. It troubles me that you and I are on about the same wavelength pretty often. In fact, it should concern you even more. Lol
My impression here is semantics. What if we interpose subtlely ‘irritating’ for too loud, or just ‘loud’, or refer to it as ‘‘subliminally grating’ ?
My first forays into putting t together a stereo commonly ran into OK at low levels, above that, not OK.
Loads of factors abound that were influencing those sonic annomolies. Lots. Not merely ‘synergy’.it was a pretty harsh and lengthy learning curve. Thereafter, from this venue, I found all the answers I needed. Latter rigs never showed themselves as anything but ones I could listen to for any length of time.
Presently, it sure looks likely riding down the middle of the tube road is where I’ll land once more…. Moderate power, moderately high eff speakers with an easy IMP… if I feel its doable.
To that end, the main item to avoid IMO is a glass power train that emulates SS sonics. It would be absurd!
Regardless, the info from this thread has so far been in a word, ‘revealing’.
charles1dad > In addition to the VAC REN amplifier, believe that the Atma-Sphere S-30 , M-60 and the Linear Tube Audio ZOTL 40 would serve Blindjim well
blindjim > I’m eternally grateful for any and all mentioned amp options or possibilities as much as thoughtfulness and home work are required to pursue ANY system errection, logistics too play a big part. The greater the budget the more concern there will be for making or introducing errors or an outright failure in synergy.
Of course, one might just stumble into a room and find it all right there but that seems a long shot IMHO. Would be nice, a turn key outfit along with a pretty fair bargain. Done.
Otherwise, its just a best guess scenario. Regularly. You can have all the specs in hand and still it doesn’t butter your bread at the end of the day. Might be very close too! Just no cigar.
Even finding a few possibly desired items in close proximity to each other seems daunting at the moment.
Swampwalker > Of course, you COULD opt for the WAVAC HE-133 150 wpc SETs @ $77K. That would maximize your choices for speakers, if in fact you had any $ left over to buy speakers ;-)
Blindjim > the goal is to get in and out for way less than what those amps run. Way less. The longer I fuss around with it, the lower I want to go $$$ wise. Lol
Given my ‘front ends first’ approach, I’m all about a solid amp selection and a great source choice. Then… very nice spkrs. What ends up happening is a true mystery at the moment. What where and even when are still in the fog.
Naturally, the amp & spkr combo will be reciprocally introduced.
Regardless, my ‘approach’ works. Has worked well. More than once. It will work again.
More will be revealed.
anyone have exp with Pure Audio Project loudspeakers?
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Upon further review….
Until I gain more personal exp this project will be done on a much more limited basis. So it’s a secondary system effort for me going forward.
I simply don’t feel confident enough to move ahead all in with the limited exp I presently have. This means too, speaker choices should have grown a bit.
To date, both EL34 amps I’ve heard I’ve really really loved their sound. The Thor 30’s in triode, and the Dodd monos in ultralinear. And, in that order.
Going forward, speaker choices will attempt to will lend themselves towards easy IMP curves, and higher sensitivities so a future triode amp might could swing with them occasionally.
Blindjim > Charles > your list is quite welcomed. Thanks.
Blindjim > Swampwalker, THX for the nod to Columbia, you’re right. The very next step will be to travel. Do a show or two. Hopefully things will settle up before CES.
BTW… I sort of figured all along relieving the what ever amp of duty below 100 - 120Hz was just about a given, and subs would take over from there down.
Maybe there are some nifty dealerships around the Birmingham area I can check out as that is my next stop for a follow up on some medical issues in a couple months or so.
Inna > One thing is certain - more powerful SET amps done right are very expensive.
Blihndjim > Inna would you mind shooting in a few SET amps done really right options here?
I see nothing with regard to how should I say it, more main stream high eff speaker makers like Coincident … Daedalus… grand Venna… etc. being submitted? Do these ‘main stream’ units pale by comparison to the ones just now listed?
Not efficient enough?
I’m putting Ayon triton III INT, Coincident’s 211 monos, the top Prima Luna monos, Atmas monos, Bernings amp, on the so far short list of tube amps. Manley, VAC and VTL come and go from it periodically. I’ll count out no one at the moment. Nor dismiss buying pre-owned. It ain’t gotta be monos. My pride will accept a 2ch one chassis amp. I just won’t tell anyone about it. Lol
All of the Input here has been and is simply fantastic. And greatly appreciated.
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blindjim > Kenny. no problemo.
life is a learning process and with any past time learning is key. it will diminish the hurt of buying the wrong thing or things, or paying too much... or not enough.
so long as I keep learning, I reamin young. to stop learning, allows the aging to progress.
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Inna > I mentioned LAMM and Wavac.
Blindjim > huge thanks Inna can’t say how much I appreciate all your feedback. yes, you sure did. I’ve been reading furiously on every suggestion, and all the technical data. I am getting confused with all the input I’m gathering, though I do have notes on nearly everything so far.
Saw at least one LAMM amp needs manual biasing. For me that’s a deal breaker. Its ticket is another I suspect, for now at least.
Grannyring > Did you buy that set of Thor TPA30s on Audio Mart?
Blindjim > sorry man, no. Not able yet to do anything worthwhile yet. Still waiting.
Yep. Bone stock, they were the best sounding little goobers I’ve heard to date, and on run of the mill Eff spkrs. That sound is why I bought the TPA 1000 Mk II line stage, and those VR4 JR spkrs. Although not in that order.
If or when possible, I’d buy them or the 60wpc versions in a heartbeat depending on a few buying selling issues.
saki70 > take a look at those with built in amps for the bass units
blindjim > Thanks man. Got it. I’ve seen a few but have decided to go only partly in on low power high eff as a secondary system now.
It could change, though the odds say it won’t, but all of the jury isn’t back yet. So we’ll see. Mostly it looks like a PP amp.
Leotis > So I used the 4 ohm taps on my PrimaLuna HP Int to my "8 ohm" speakers
is there a simple explanation for the difference between the 4 ohm and the 8 ohm outputs?
Blindjim > Leotis, been there and done that myself.
When an amp has optional output taps, the amp is designed to output the total voltage and or current it produces into that load. Ie., 60wpc amp via 4 ohm tap = 60wpc. Same thing for the other taps provided the load or IMP of the speaker is similarly matched, unlike SS amps that automatically see or ‘feel’ the changes and react differently.
.
Essentially, using a lower output tap or lower IMP on a higher IMP load or speaker will cut the power output by 50% or so. In any event it will be less power to the speakers if set up that way.
Speakers should be transparent enough to reveal upstream and room concerns, changes, and problems. For them to do their job as such, they need the right amount of power and the correct electrical operating environment, or as best is possible.
You can look at speakers like rocks. Look at an amp like a bulldozer or truck.
As strong as is a truck or bulldozer, it can only push a particular size of rock. Sure, it can easily push little rocks, or medium sized rocks, and even a larger 4 or 2 imnpedance sized rock but it has to match up to the rock as well with its gearing too, not merely its engine.
Using lower IMP taps sends less power to the speakers, IF the speaker IMP is much higher.
Highs will roll off, bass will be more bloomy, and usually the sound will be smoother and warmer because the speakers are being starved and can not fully demonstrate what they are capable of providing. Resolution will suffer, leading edges will get rounded off.
The sound will tend to be darker and more euphonic than normal as the speaker lacks the power to yield speed and fully demonstrate the entire bandwidth properly.
I did that mismatch with a couple different amps trying to get them matched up the best way possible. You don’t truly know what the imp curve is on many speakers, but amps do. They will tell you IF you pay attention and try the amps various taps..
Usually, the spkr maker gives you a really good indicator of what a nominal IMP for their spkrs run but that’s at one particular freq at one designated voltage. Like 1KHz at one watt, or 2.8 volts or so.
But what about power needs at other freqs? ImP will change then and music is made of many frequencies and volumes.
Its at times a best guess scenario so we use the amp to tell us what it likes, and we listen for the best match.
I liked the mismatched setting on a pair of speakrs I had as they were brand new and not fully run in. they sounded bright and thin on the right 8 ohm tap so I slid them onto the 4 ohm tap. Sounded much better then albeit a whole lot darker though.
after about three or four months I switched them onto the higher IMP tap and whoa! Night and day different! By then they were run in quite well. I begin getting loads of resolution, impact, better dynamics, more transparency, greater extension, every aspect of the reproduction improved. Thankfully they were 93db and an easy load of 6 – 8 ohms and I did not push them hard so the obvious lack of power did no harm to the tweeters. From clipping.
following the uptick to 8 ohm taps, and the greater resultant transparency ai was able to determine what did or did not work well in the system. Wha twas making things bright, rolled off, was buzzing, if there was a ground loop causing the trouble, more exactly how wires were contributing to the affair, etc., bedcause then I could hear things better.
Until then, I was like the system mostly in the dark. But for a while, it sounded OK to me. lol
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leotis > Thank you for the very interesting answer!
Blindjim > No problem. I’d keep them on the higher taps for a while, listen, closely. That is of course once the amp has settled in on that portion of the circuit. A few days more or less should suffice. .
Another analogy for incorrect IMP matching of amps to spkrs could be like driving a 5 speed vehicle only in 2nd gear. It will take off and it will run but overall performance will suffer.
Another will likely be able to definitely say this more accurately, but I tend to think the taps on tformer output amps were designed to run in a range, not just one specific imp load. So I’m figuring the 8 ohm tap means about 8 ohms, and from above 4 to 8.
This is unless ther is a 6 ohm tap on the amp too. Then the range for the 8 tap diminishes to between 6 & 8 or above.
The 4 ohm tap is for that section of IMPs at or below 4 ohm loads.
Follow?
The only real worry is as said, clipping. Its when a driver is starved for power predominately. Usually it’s a tweeter. Ordinarily clipping occurs when running the spkrs at higher levels and the power a driver asks for can’t be provided appropriately or comes intermittedly. That’s when actual . damage to the loudspeaker can take place. It happened in a pr I had bought preowned. His INT did not have the power to satisfy those speaker’s demands and one of the four blew out. Quit working. The factory fixed it eventually. Once I paid for shipping and so forth.
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thom_mackris > huge thanks tom.
Blindjim > the design topology I irrefutably decree best, is the one that sounds the best, can drive the speakers I like, and is within reason, affordable.
Blindjim > atmosphere thought you might clear that clipping item up better. Thanks.
I am ever grateful to VSA for bailing me out on damaged spkrs sold as working properly. That was quite the learning experience all in all.
in fact VSA changed out both left and right associated tweets, not merely the bad one. I ran them in properly and sold them so I could get higher Eff spkrs. And use tube power for a change.
It was the worst decision I’ve made to date. Its like going into the ‘big room’ at a dealership first, instead of just dealing with what you can actually buy instead. Trying to remain intent on the lesser goods then sure is harder. I often lose interest and become quite depressed.
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Atmosphere > good sound can be had on almost any budget.
Blindjim > thanks. My depression lifts.
Inna > We are chasing great sound not good. Good is easy.
Blindjim > … and its back. lol
I’ve been delving deeply and steadfastly in between the lines of articles where possible on Coincident and Devore loudspeakers. And feel there yet may be a light at the end of the tunnel, that ain’t a train.
As a secondary outfit, an all Coincident system could wind up landing fairly inexpensively and be like my last Honda ’73 750cc bike…. A SET starter kit. Actually, the Harley owners called the Honda a harley starter kit.
After the military, my Kawasaki full blown streetable drag bike was very different. It ate Harley’s for breakfast.
I suppose, one must begin somewhere at some level and thereafter merely follow directions from those who have been there before, to achieve a similar destination.
Life is so simple. Only money complicates it.
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Johnk > “… much of SET differences comes down to the overall build quality and design of the amplifiers. “
….synergy exists between SET or other lower power amps and horns. I do think that many running horns are doing the horn equivalent of dipping a toe in the pool … the more horn loaded the better.”
Blindjim > thanks. I think we enjoy the same ideal here and it is why I’ve chosen to put my advance onto the SET oriented system will remain at least for now, an aside. Secondary.
In my world, I presently have no significant other to opine, or appease. What ever the choice is solely my own with regard to ‘ANY ‘project.
Partly from not being convinced that SET topology despite the particular approach, will formidly satisfy my designs on my musical preffs en masse. I could be quite wrong given I’ve not had the experiences here of others or yourself.
I’m simply hard pressed to accept the fact a Triode amp even with nice horns will kick out the jams quite like amps I have become accustomed to hearing with far more horsepower and point source speakers of standard varieties, within the confines of my home.
Sure I see horns at live music events. I do get their contributions to sound. If a very nice horn system cuold be had for $5K to $10K, and not the $23 to $4K prices I'm seeing out there, this would be lots easier.
This is not to say I’m a metal head freak or stone Rock & roller. Not at all. I do however enjoy a large slice of that facet. Indeed, with a propensity to large bands, rock jazz or blues, only 60 watt amps and above … well above… have been my lot and have IMO, been successful on their own levels.
Consequently, in order for me to have a system which encompasses all of the musical genres needs with less opportunity for mitigation or compromise, has to reamin my approach.
It was adeptly put, I’m only willing to put a toe or two into the water in facing down the triode contingent. I believe the best possible way to proceed would be as a few here have said pointedly, look into horns. I’ve been given much input on that singular note too. And I must agree. Horns would be the pathway to likely eliminate about half of the issues, and broaden the choices for SET amps to follow.
Sadly, I’m more than a little stayed, conservative, or main streamed to put $25K or the like into where it ought to be as with horns on pure speculation…. … at the moment.
Deeper soul searching tells me as well, were I not quite so grandiose the chances for two perhaps lesser established albeit quite adequate sounding arrays could be had, rather than one subjectively put, outstanding affair.
Ya eat the ‘blue’ pill or the ‘red’ pill. Ya can’t always eat ‘em both and be equally satisfied.
Still… something may soon arise that allows the herd to be culled, and a choice one cut out.
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Atmosphere > I think you will find if others respond, that horns and triodes are quite capable of bringing home the bacon!
Swampwalker > horns and triodes are quite capable of bringing home the bacon!
Grannyring > I heard the same set up at Axpona 2 years ago and it was as close to a live event as I have heard.
Blindjim > Atmosphere, Swampwalker, Grannyring, you guys are great. Really super. It is obvious I’m missing the one item necessary for me to fully understand your advice, experiences and information, as I’m basing my entire thinking on one incredible listening experience to a pair of 30wpc Thor monos on some VSA VR4 JR 89db spkrs playing Dianah Krall off of a Shanlin tube CDP.
Beyond that all on my part is sheer speculation as to what SET amps can and can not do., with horns or with high eff cone speakers..
How well do they play stuff like Brian Setzer, Gordon Goodwin, Basie, big band blues, multi piece bands in general?
This begs the point then, exactly what musical genre is not served well by SET amps and High Eff speakers, if any?
Please, pardon my ignorance, but not having heard the aforementioned playing any of those cuts, I simply don’t know but felt it was not something sET’s were cut out to do.
Johnk > Why do you feel buying into SET horn systems takes so much $?
Most anytime I look about high quality SET amps or integrated amps are available used in the 2-4k range. Altec JBL or other horn systems about 2k-up.
Blindjim > Johnk thanks a lot. Its pretty simple I’ve not the exp to know what to look at or for, and as such felt the need to go with only exceptionally well regarded and popular items, and many of them I’ve read about are quite expensive on both sides of the coin. Amps and transducers.
Add in to that no EXP on the SET + Horns front, and the opportunity to make a significantly poor and possibly very costly choice or choices is high.
I hope that might help clear up one or two things that continually concern me.
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kdude66 > Bob Crites Cornscala.These are available as a kit or fully built for about 2k
blindjim > many thanks. I think I read about these particular speakers. Iowa? The LP at A 15ft LP might be an issue going forward, right now it certainly is a problem.
Atmosphere > Amps and loudspeakers don't have taste in musical genres! I wouldn't worry about that
Blindjim > Thanks Ralph. I could not figure another way to say it.
Naturally, appliances do not have ‘prefferences’ towards music. My inference was a bit deeper in context and I obviously did not convey things with greater clarity. My bad.
I’ve noticed some systems do much better jobs at reproducing music than do others. Of course. Complicated multi instrument cuts as well are done better by some amps than by other amps. Same for loudspeakers. Things like resolution, individual instrument distinction. Sure, my iphone can playback Illinois Jacquette’s album Jacquette’s Got it that he did with 17 other Harvard musical students back in the 1980s, but it is mostly just noise and only familiarity with the album enables me to half way enjoy it via that means.
As I’ve said previously I need to get out and hear SET + High Eff or Horns handling the kinds of music I prefer to really and or fully understand member’s points being . submitted.
Larryi > I have always felt that really good amps, regardless of type, sound great at low volume
Blindjim > I tend to agree. My normal levels are where you would need to turn it down some to comfortably talk to your guest sitting in the same room. Not that the sound is loud or at higher levels, but where casual conversation won’t be attempted to often.
I measured this once with an all tube power train and Silverline Sonata IIIs @ 93db. I believe the meter was set to catch average peaks as it wasn’t jumpin’ all over the place constantly.
From the LP, At 90 -92db as I recollect it was pretty loud though not at all painful. It was as well, an abnormal listening level for myself.
At 93 – 95db it was not a level I’d often run for more than a song or two. Maybe.
All of this in a room 14 x 20 x 9.5ft. closed off by doors to other rooms or halls.
I could be off though that feels accurate.
wolf_garcia > HO (Dennis Had "Inspire" Fire Bottle SEP HO, or High Output) has seen various tubes in the recent few months as it uses only 4 of them (
blindjim > Wolf, I’ve looked online for Dennis, and or these amps, even a HP amp, couldn’t come up with anything worthwhile.
It would be great as was just said to get into this past time on the cheaper front, to get some practical working knowledge. That is IMHO, the huge integral missing link here For me.
Hearing of some combinations that have worked for others would be nice beyond those previously mentioned using Coincident speakers by Charles and or Grandering. I’ve noted and set those aside already.
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Kenny. > buy them as a kit or fully built.
Blindjim > I’ll look into that or them. Thank you.
Which amps did you or another use with these loudspeakers?
I’m wondering too, what value they might have on the ‘used’ market? Can’t recall ever seeing them there.
Audio Art used to be one company that made several sorts of Triode amps. Don’t see them around much any more.
Having ideas on what amps worked well with what horns or High Eff speakers again, would be great, if anyone wanted to input their exp on that note here.
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wolf_garcia > …Shindo Schmindo
blindjim > lol. Rotflmao. Lovely. That was great.
I’m supposing just Goog his name with the AA or Ebay suffix.
I’ll sure try.
For sure there are a goodly bit of low powered glass amps about. Way more beyond SET in PP land that acquit themselves quite well.
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Thom @ Galibier Design > …. One way door.
Blindjim > although I’m not Larry, I want to thank you for the insights. I feel they are frank and as such valuable.
I get it now. The musical genre is not the issue to worry about with itty bitty powered rigs. Why I felt it was amazes me. Fine. .live and learn.
Thanks for the feedback on single driver speakers. I had summarily dismissed them already as a possible solution.
The overwhelming advice here says the ‘horns’ have it as the usual suspects for mating to triodes when feasible. Now, I’ve just gotta find those affordable horns and SET amp (s) to begin acquiring some EXP.
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