Sibilance how do I get rid of it?

As far as I know every system has a problem with sibilants to one degree or another. But obviously some much, much worse than others.

I am confused a bit as you attempt to include your room acoustics and demensions into the equation. Having an extremely live room adds reverb/echoing affects but should never change an 's' sound to a 'shhh' sound. At least as far as I can tell. I just don't see the connection.

Of course, electrically noisy neighborhoods, inferior recordings, IC and speaker cables, and components could inject all sorts of junk into the signal leading to sibilants and other ill effects.

Assuming that your neighborhood, recordings, and equipment are not contributing to the problems, I believe sibilants has everything to do with the purity of AC power.

With that said, I would recommend the following tweaks:

1. Well, I can't really recommend this one from a safety perspective but it is a fact that grounding your AC outlets introduces much noise into the AC. Removing the ground has the opposite affect. Isolated grounds are better that common grounds. No grounding produces the best results.

2. Install a minimum of three dedicated circuits/lines. One for the amp, another for your digital source, and yet another for your pre. You are probably aware that digital adds much noise to the circuit it is connected to. Therefore, any other equipment sharing that circuit will also pick up much of that noise and eventually will amplify it. At the very least get the amp and pre onto it's own dedicated circuit/line, and put the ditigal on an undedicated line. Assuming your equipment is of a certain caliber, you should notice a tremendous improvement with this relatively cheap tweak if you stop right here.

3. For your dedicated circuits/lines, use an upgraded romex wire, not just the cheap 12 gauge available at Home Depot. I'm using 10ga. 99.95% OFC romex which is still very cheap compared to any other tweaks you may do. Do not allow for any breaks (junction boxes) between the service panel and the outlet.

4. Some will say that one phase or leg of the service panel can make your system sound better than the opposing phase or leg. I don't doubt it. If you have alot of motors and/or dimmers on one phase at the service panel, then it is entirely possible your dedicated audio circuits will produce cleaner AC if they are on the opposite phase.

5. Install some audio grade wall outlets such as FIM at $60 an outlet.

6. Eqaully important is a first rate AC power conditioner. I happen to be using Foundation Research LC-1's in-line power conditioners for digital and pre and an LC-2 for my amp. These are not cheap by any means but since these take the place of a power cord and an active power conditioner they could be considered somewhat of a bargain. Two Foundation Research LC-1's and one LC-2 will set you back about $2000. Considering that good active power conditioners are quite expensive and you still need aftermarket power cords, $2000 is a pretty good price.

The Foundation Research LC's work directly on the sibilants problem and you would immediately notice a very serious improvement here. Not to mention a much lowered noise floor in general and greater imaging and dimensionality.

7. If you've bought into anything I've said thus far, then you could even entertain a few more extreme tweaks. For example:

o A second AC line to the house dedicated to your audio equipment. It's as close to the outside power transformer as you're going to get.
o A beefed up silver or high purity copper industrial grade service panel and circuit breakers. A friend bought one for over $1k but then later found an even better one for about $250.
o Converting some or all of your gear to 230volts and run 230 volts (balanced power) straight from the service panel. Audio equipment connected to each other but connected to opposing phases/legs at the service panel can introduce noice into the AC.
o Install the new service panel as close to your system as possible.

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I've performed suggestions 1 thru 6 above and noticed very obvious improvements with each tweak made. I no longer perceive sibilants to be an issue in my system. They've made such tremendous improvements at the micro- and macro-dynamic levels that I fully intend to one day perform most/all of step 7 just to see what additional benefits may be gained.

Again I'm assuming that your neighborhood electrical, your equipment, and your recordings played are not serious contributing to the sibilants problems you may be experiencing. If this is true and you do the above, sibilants will no longer be an issue to you. But getting to bed at a decent hour will be.

As far as I know, there is no other remedy to actually resolve or seriously deminish your issues with sibilants. Somebody correct me if I am wrong.

One last note: if you should decide to purchase any kind of power conditioner (active or passive), just like any other component, there are good ones and bad ones. Of course even the bad ones can receive good reviews. And there are some popular ones out there that are even worse than not having any power conditioner at all.

-IMO

Correct me if I'm wrong but I would suggest that those who poo-poo the idea that AC is the main culprit for sibilance have probably never experimented with or altered their AC. Or they may have experimented with AC a bit but because of their equipment, did not notice any difference.

Last night, I tried something I've been wanting to do for some time.

I have three in-line power conditioners and three dedicated circuits/lines for amp, pre, and source.

I removed my Foundation Research LC-2 from the outlet to the amp and installed a cryo dipped Hubbell 20 amp IEC to ends of my dedicated 10ga. OFC romex and plugged it directly into the back of the amp. No outlet, no breaks, etc., just straight from the service panel to the back of the amp.

Although I noticed a tad better dynamic headroom, which was expected since the LC-2 is a bit enemic for my amp, the most noticeable degradation was the enhanced sibilance on female vocalists and cymbals. The difference was fairly substantial.

I put the LC-2 in-line power conditioner back in and sibilance is once again essentially gone.

And I know for a fact that if I were to remove all 3 in-line power conditioners, the sibilance would be greater still.

Cleaning up the electrical undoubtedly enhances numerous aspects of a decent or better system. In my experience, sibilance is at the top of those enhancements.

No,Onhwy61, I am not saying that at all. As I already indicated in my earliest post I am already assuming that recordings and equipment are of a certain caliber.

And by that I am implying sibilance is not embedded in the recording to any appreciable degree.

Cdc, simply calling something a farce does not make it so.

The lights in any given room in my home dim for a moment whenever the air conditioner comes on. Even though the AirC is on it's own seperate circuit from the lights. AirC compressors/fans require substantial current. As does my 18amp tablesaw motor which is also known to dim lights.

I don't know much about electrical, but I believe each of the two phases/legs in your service panel has a copper bus in which all circuit leads are connected to. All the circuits on one leg are out of phase from the opposing leg. The opposing phases/legs are completely seperated thus far. But you still have half of your circuits sharing one phase. But in addition it is likely that your neutral bus is shared by both phases/legs and perhaps some to most or all of your ground.

The point being that there's an awful lot of sharing going on in the service panel even for so-called dedicated circuits.

The dedicated circuit is primarily for two reasons:
1. to maximize current draw for an amplifier as some amps require every bit of power it can get, not to mention an amplifier's anything but constant current draw from taking constant current away from your other compoents. For example: Some time ago, I took my pre/pro off the dedicated 20amp line where my 600 wpc@4ohm amplifier is hooked up. The pre only draws 36 watts of power. No big deal right? Putting the pre on it's own dedicated line caused the dynamic headroom of my amp to just blossom. And this was noticeable at fairly low volumes.

2. To minimize grunge and noise that other appliances, dimmers, blenders, microwaves, and digital sources inject into other runs off the same circuit spreading to your audio equipment which if there is any to be found and there always is will be amplified to some degree.

In summary, a dedicated circuit is not a complete isolator from whatever other junk may be running in the house. But it's as close as most can reasonably get. The only complete isolating strategy would be to have all audio equipment running from a second service panel which itself is connected to the transformer at utility pole outside your home.

-IMO

Natalie, Perhaps the best response I could provide would be to paraphrase Scot Markwell of The Absolute Sound after they dramatically altered the wiring, circuit breakers, etc. in room 3 at Sea Cliff about a year ago. Scot said something like: "Until now we have never been able to fully evaluate or review a product based on it's true potential. A statement both humbling and frightful."

And if you do the work yourself, your looking at a couple of hundred dollars to install dedicated lines, audio grede outlets, and circuit breakers.

Pretty cheap tweaks, don't you think? If only line conditioners and powercords would be so cheap.

-IME

Onhwy61, I do not believe anybody here, especially me, has given any indication whatsoever that improving the electrical would actually remove sibilance previously embedded into a recording.

It's odd that you would insinuate someone would issue a silly statement like that. Especially when several posts above clearly address that exact issue.

BTW, nice system you have there.

Cdc, okay, after you emphatically stated that cleaning the electrical for sonic improvements is a farce, you did state your one reason why.

However, I believe the reason you provided was poor in that 1. it was an abnormal occurance (when something like a light bulb blows) and 2. You spoke only hypothetically even though your light bulb may really have blown. You did not cite one practical experience where cleaning up the electrical would have any positive or negative affects on the sonics of your system.

Correct me if I'm wrong but was it not too long ago and yet even today, some to many claim that audio cables are all the same and make no sonic difference. Some say that about amplifiers too. All amplifiers simply amplify. With your stance on the above I must assume that you are in these camps as well. So are most electricians.

Your stance reminds me of the scientist proving that a bumble bee cannot fly theory. But that's all it is, a theory. Well, the bumble bees are flying and obviously some to many audio enthusiasts are experiencing greater pleasure with their systems than you are with yours.

As for asking an electrician anything along these lines? Unless it's Glen, I'd rather ask the kid at the drive-thru window at McDonald's.

An electrician is not an electrical engineer. And of course neither am I. But I play one in my house and here on audiogon.

-IMO

Funny, I've had conversations with others in large and very live rooms before, unfinished homes, empty cafeterias and church bldg's (well near empty) many times bigger than the 24 x 16 room mentioned above. And I've yet to hear anybody's pronunciation of the 's' sound turn to mush simply because of excited reverb, flutter echo, etc..

I don't know about wildly excited but all audio info becomes somewhat 'excited' in a acoustically untreated live room. Not just the portion resulting in sibilance. Our ears easily make the distinction as to which type of room we're in. The original source information does not change one iota. Only the reverb info. But again our ears most always can easily make that distinction between the original source and the ensuing echo.

I'd be curious to know the names of the 'Pro Sound Reinforcers' and 'Studio Professionals' that Zaikesman consulted regarding this matter.

Your erudite responses are appreciated. And I certainly don't want to be obtuse here. However, I do not believe that you have provided one real life experience where sibilance was present and then disappeared or vice versa.

In fact, I was at the Kansas City zoo today with my family. At one point we were in a large (approx. 13H x 25L x 18W) concrete walled room with an aquarium glass wall taking up about 2/3rd's of one of the long walls. As my wife was speaking to me from about 3 feet away and I paid close attention to her pronunciations. There were only 3 other people in this mostly empty room. Her s' sounded just fine. Both in the actual and the reverb. Just as I suspected. My wife's pronunciation did not change one iota.

As I stated in an earlier post. I ran a test (for other reasons) by taking out the amplifier's in-line power conditioner and ran the romex straight from the service panel to a cryo dipped hubbell 20 amp IEC plug and plugged it directly into the amplifier. The sibilance was very present and was the most notable difference. Enough so where I was anxious to put things back to the way they were. And I know how much the sibilance increases when I remove all 3 in-line conditioners since I did not always have them.

You guys can hypothesize all you want but I am not buying it.

Perhaps when Braab8 resolves his issue or begins the process of elimination, s/he will update this post.

Besides I already know I'm right otherwise I would have changed my opinion at least 3 posts ago.

:)

-IME

Cdc, as I recall above, you provided one real life situation, however out of the ordinary it was when your light bulb blew and caused affects to occur on other circuits. And I believe the rest you mentioned was hypothetical.

Nevertheless, based on your post above, it sounds as though you have only one dedicated circuit/line for all components.

I used to have all my equipment on one dedicated 20 amp line and at that time I did notice any real difference from the components being plugged into several 15 amp non-dedicated lines.

Of course that was also one or two system upgrades ago.

But even with the dedicated lines, I do not recall hearing any serious improvement pertaining to sibilance (the topic at hand) until I started buying Foundation Research in-line passive power conditioners for each of my components. Which I purchased one at a time. With each new in-conditioner, the results were always predictable and noticeably better than before.

-IME