seperates over integrated. Why?

I also understand your point very clearly, Stanhifi. It all makes a lot of sense.

However, while I was shopping for a new tube amplifier a while back, I happened to come across the Jadis Orchestra Reference. I guess after hearing it, a lot of the conventional wisdom went out the window in my mind. The so - called experts didn't seem to get this one right, that was certain. Instead of buying a stereoblock, or another pair of monos, I surprised myself to an unbelievable degree by finally buying something after a long search - an integrated.

To this day, with the right tubes, I have yet to hear better midrange from any amplifier. And, yes, I have far more expensive and well respected separates than this overlooked integrated.

While the JOR is now gone, a DA30 has taken its place in my wife's system. No, it doesn't have the same midrange, but it does offer a richness and liquidity in the midbass up through the lower midrange that once again makes me wonder why I mess around with other stuff.

I guess my point is there are just very few absolutes in audio...

Thank you for your response, Stanhifi.

At heart, I agree with you. However, that darn JOR was just so good sounding, that it ended up throwing my whole sense of things off.

My mono tube amps, extensively modded Atma Sphere M60 MKIII and Granite 861, are both very well designed components, brought to market by uniquely creative, intelligent men, respectively, both of which I consider to stand out from the norm. Both products easily have more power and superior performance at the frequency extremes than the JOR. So, if we are talking those attributes, or even measurements, then I will allow they probably smoke the Orchestra Reference.

But, and this, to me, is the essence of why I am in this hobby, the JOR produced a purity of sound I have never before or since have heard. Never have I encountered what I consider "perfect midrange", and by that I mean a triangle sounded as if a triangle was in my room, vocals sounded as if the person sang before me, etc. Cliches, yes. Overused, most definitely! Words cannot convey what I heard. But, once I retubed it with the output tubes I figured would best suit the buyer's sonic priorities, I do believe I heard it. I was so excited that I was hearing music, and not audio, that it was a sad day in having sold it.

The person I sold it to, and he is a regular and respected member of these discussions, was also astounded by its performance. In fact, his main system consisted of AtmaSphere MA2, along with Kharma loudspeakers, and beyond the matters of power, scale, and low frequencies, was not sure he was stepping back one iota otherwise. The JOR was so far out of its own league (he had to upgrade his already very good ancillary components to a very serious degree in his office system to find out how high the JOR could rise) that all he could think about way trying it in the main system. And, we never even rolled the stock Ei 12AX7 tubes.

Though, and this is where I think you and I reconcile, before getting this amp, he tried many an integrated, not one of them he considered anywhere near acceptable. In fact, he found all of them to be lousy. Both Jadis integrated amplifiers actually produce a scary level of performance. So, if we consider them aberrations, then, yes, the separates, all things being equal, should be superior.

Where I do think many, many people (and companies) fall down is in matching the separates. Their preamps just don't work well with their power amps, and they don't know it. Or, the wrong choice in cabling also precludes them from their equipment from reaching its ultimate plane. In these instances, a well designed integrated may well easily produce better sound.

But, in the end, though I am saying a lot, I don't know any more than the next guy. The obvious questions to me are, why did I sell the JOR, and/or why haven't I picked up another one. Well, I did move up a step to the DA30, and though it offers some advantages in some areas (a type of rich, full sound that virtually no high end stuff these days has), I still haven't found that midrange...

Take care,
Joe