Just saying. I know you are too open minded to be close minded- Zeppo Marx.
Thanks very much for your patience and kindness... Ok if you read my argument it is this: An INCREMENTALLY set of additions in a series of experiments cannot be ONLY placebos... Adding one schumann generator after another one cannot be entirely illusory... In some acoustically uncontrolled room some people could hear no difference, BECAUSE their room and system is too noisy...Like i said i dont recommend S.G. for first step in embeddings controls... It work for me first because my room is very heavily acoustically treated and under controls... Believe me or not i could distinguish between the difference of adding a single straw or not, to one of the main Helmholtz tube for example...Read about Helmholtz bottles you will know why... It is no bat hearing it is acoustic science... Then modifying the Schumann generators by connecting all of them or not, by adding shungite+copper or not on them , by adding herkimer diamonds or not on them ; all these additions are different experiments... Reducing them to placebos effects is preposterous completely... A incremental set of experiments is not a piece of sugar in medecine... |
Inquiring minds want to know. Don’t know how they pull that off unless very low SPLs are sufficient to achieve the desired effect. Or placebo effect? Both possible. I’ll leave it to others to figure out which and let me know. Placebo effect forget it! it is too easy to invoke that about ANYTHING someone dont want to experiment with or believe... Remember that i am not the regular orthodox consumer , i MODIFIED ALL the devices i bought, including set of springs and S.G. i mostly created my other devices myself without buying anything.... Then how do you explain the experiments i did with the S.G. ? If you add only a piece of shungite with is half the part of my "golden plates" device, on top of the S. G. the sound will be compressed... If you add an Herkimer diamond the sound will be decompressed and more clear in highs frequencies range... It is always the case, not for me only, but from others who try this experiment i recommend... With this experiment i modify the S. G. adding to it my golden plate (shungite +copper) and add an herkimer diamond for an optimal balancing effect...This is no more placebo but a renewable set of experiments at least 4 experiments, with shungite only, with H.D. only, with the 2 or without any only a nude S.G. Taking a product like sugar for placebo effect in medecine is one thing, adding materials that modify a device in many didderent possible sets of experiments is another thing totally... Confusing the 2 is not SCIENCE, it is using a concept in a misplaced context.... For example my 2 years incrementally step by steps increase in S.Q. cannot be attributed to placebo.... A Helmholtz grid of adjusted 18 pipes and tubes is NOT placebo it is pure acoustic science... In the same way my grid of connected and modified S.G. is not a placebo... Easy to verify if i disconnect it completely or partially and listening to the sound.... I apologize for not being patient with the "placebo" afficionados... I dont want to be rude to you.... I speak in general... You are helpful and i consider you a friend..... My deepest regards..... |
Maybe this is a case where a cheap design in fact achieves the desired purpose.
You are RIGHT on the spot.... Thanks... My deepest respect for your help..... |
I never believe that a 10 bucks device will stay at 7,83 hertz... It is precisely why these cheap device work better perhaps than very costly one... I bet that their range vary between someting like 10 hertz and 4 hertz around their alleged 7,83 hertz... At this price is Chinese designer meticulously verify the frequency 7,83 hertz ?.... Asking the question is answering it.... 😊 It is the reason why the dithering effect work....Introducing a random variation around this frequency.... People who sells this S.G. sell the "mythical" non existant exact 7,83 hertz frequency....It is an oscillating average in reality... Because the earth resonance vary around this frequency and is not always exactly that one and more than that the shumann resonance is a set of peaks around it and his harmonics....Not the single perfect 7,83 hertz.... In nature, from what I read, it sounds like echoes of the Shumann resonance frequency would be somewhat randomized, like echoes one hears of thunder after a strike.
When our kids were little, we ran white noise generators at night to help them sleep better. No resonance but random generated audible white noise (like dither). Worked like a charm! Those devices have been around for quite a while. It seems we understand each other .... My best to you.... Remember that i am not an english speaker, then my understanding of subtle humor is sometimes lost in translation...I must admit that i am a bit too reactive also and not alway subtle.... 😊😁 |
Maghister if the devices are introducing white noise or some other form of random noise, that is a totally different thing than the Schumann resonance that they are banking on. The two could certainly work in combo, but are still two different things. Yes and i never expected that a cheap chinese 10 bucks S.G. would produce an exact and stable 7,83 hertz... They are more a random generator AROUND a set of frequencies, those called Schumann... Then they could act with a dithering effect? i ask the question... Market publicity is NOT reality.... These cheap generator CANNOT produce a stable precise signals the same in each other when measured.... It is and it was my opinion.... Then they produce a random variation around a set of frequencies... For example between 4 hertz and 10 hertz randomly....They then can act with some dithering audible effect... What do you think? |
GK was one of, if not the first, proponent of springs for isolation on Audiogon. Do a thread search.
True he speak with me of that.... And i bought set of springs to make exsperiments with.... And i discover how to decrease the resonance in my box speakers with a dyssimetric applying force between the 2 sets i install on each of my speakers using a different compressive force on each with great results... But he use the spring incorrectly, unsing only one set under undamped box speakers... |
Maghister thing is dithering typically means introduction of random patterns as a way to simulate greater detail.
Schumann as I understand it is a resonance...not a random pattern.
So the two would seem to be totally different. You know much than me about dithering i will not contest that at all... But is the imprecise varying frequencies of the cheap S.G. around a theorical 7.83 Hz but being more an oscillating device around 4 hertz and ten hertz with their harmonics dont mimic a random pattern effect on the homogenuous noise level of the house? I ask the question? |
If it’s the Earth’s natural frequency, then that frequency is already in the room. Why would you need to generate it? The S.G. grid amplify it....And his harmonics.... Then adding a form of powerful noise that act to the signals like a dithering factor.... By the way the Schumann frequencies linked to earth are a SET of spectrum peaks more than a single frequency like the Schumann generator.... But my explanation is ONLY a guess... What i know for sure is that my S.G. grid work in my room.... My best to you with cold mate.....Or hot one..... |
maghister read up on dither and you will see why that is totally different than Schumann frequency. Anyone know that S.G. frequency and dither are 2 different things.... What is proposed is that this frequency act like a dithering effect...a constant noise working in increasing the information like a "dither" effect... Dithering effect exist not only in mechanical system but manifest also in digital processing and even in electro magnetic frequencies resonant scaling effects....Even in laser optic for example.... Then... Proposing a dithering effect coming from this frequency resonant manifestation of the earth atmosphere could make sense... I am not a scientist.... As a seeker of truth as I believe you to be you should decry obfuscation not condone it as just another way of doing things that is somehow OK. it is destructive not constructive behavior and I know you know the difference.
Some things matter. Cheers! I apologize for being too rude with you and unjust.... I had difficulties here with people siding against one another... I am sorry for my too harsh reaction.... You are not what i said you are... My deepest regards from my heart.... |
But it is a good guess for a totally baseless claim. You are wrong.... "Dither", It is only a guess by me because it makes sense with what i experienced....I dont have any other explanation...I am not a scientist... It is not "necessarily" a good guess like you said, yes i could be wrong....But i could be right... But your affirmation on the other hand about "baseless claim" is TOTALLY wrong...and bad faith on your part... For decades audiophiles experienced it around the world and report it in ALL audio thread...They are not all liars, or deluded one....The audible effect they CLAIM they experience is not BASELESS...The probabilty that they are all liars and deluded one is way less than the probability of yourself speaking non sense about something you never experience by yourself.... Take less time hating people here, because of your blinders and few minutes to think each day....Why not experimenting yourself at peanuts cost? Too lazy? Too obtuse mind? Do your hobby is mocking those who report their experiments? Myself i experimented with my OWN devices what i speak about and only bought few bucks devices i modified, then never buying any costly tweaks, i know THEN by MY listening experiments what i speak about...Not by selling or advertising tweaks or buying ready made tweaks... I sell peanuts cost homemade creativity....What do you sell? Hate for a ghost? I dont hate people here, i am only annoyed by stupidity and especially by bad faith.... By the way you can end your hating "geoffkait" machine, he is no more here....in spite of all his defects he was funny and creative....Not always easy but who are ? Read the scripture story of the straw and the beam....That will help.... |
Millercarbon you must know firsthand that unorthodox people and those who speak too bluntly or frankly made half the crowd hating them.... 😊
I am in no crowd i dont hate people here....I talked to G. like i talked to you, and i tried to take the good which is in all of us....
My only impatience is sometimes with too "straight" people.... I am not perfect....I like creative and open mind....
I am only interested to making friends here being confined and working no more and talking about audio....They are a very different characters here and i love most of them with my heart.... |
And I'm one who actually prefers my system without it,
I already explain that i prefer the S.G. in my grid to be modified.... Because the effect is good but could be a nit in the negative direction in some system.... Then i balanced the effect with 2 powerful means: the golden plate will make the effect going more with an acuentuation of the mid frequencies and the Herkimer diamond more with an accentuation of the higher frequencies, then adding the 2 operate a perfect balance in the S.G. effect... Try it, you may change your mind about the addition of the S.G. Some people did not experience this audible "dithering" effect of the S.G. frequency because it is an audible effect but NOT so powerful in some case, it cannot erase by itself ONLY some of the negative effects of the many noise levels: mechanical noise level, electrical noise level, acoustical noise level... I NEVER recommend it for the first and only acoustical or electrical controls embeddings....WHY? Because i know first hand that a room and a house and an audio system uncontrolled, like many systems of many owners here, are not always optimally under control and often not controlled at all... Then listening to this effect very audible in some minimal conditions is not always possible in other conditions... Dithering frequency work but dont create miracles... Helmholtz tubes and pipes grid work miracles way more huge than my S.G. grid so good it is.... My "golden plates" are more powerful also.... In the last 2 years i created around 200 hundred connections between devices in my room.... They all work but some are not powerful like others.... I mentioned Geoff only b/c he was always on the fringe with some wild stuff and meant it in a light-hearted way-- I had no issue with him, personally. I had no real issue with him and in fact i miss his humor....I try to have no personal issue with anyone and i speak to all who want a discussion... I am only a bit impatient with those who stick with blinders.... At least Geoffkait never stick to dogmas.... I am unorthodox myself then.... |
Just what do think a puny little 5 volt subsonic oscillator is going to do? By the way i can change completely the sound in a room with ONLY one straw and with an audible effect similar to an amplifier upgrade and even more powerful... ONE SINGLE ORDINARY STRAW location and lenght can change completely the sound of a room.... Why ? Placebo effect ?....Think again..... Or read my posts..... A clue: Helmholtz science.... There is more in the world than placebo effect to explain it, doctor "i know everything and i doubt everything".... « Thinking is forgetting all we know to rethink it anew»-Anonymus Smith |
Any benefit is purely psychological. If this helps you think your system sounds better, who am I to argue. It will not last. Instead of doubting others experience which is useless....Why not thinking about OTHER things than trying to contradict their experiences with a superficial argument and trying by yourself? A 20 bucks experience... But remember that it is NOT the first embedding controls i recommend because the noise floor levels of an audio system could be too high to make the listener able to detect the effects...Anyway many people has verified his potency in their room...All across the world already by the way.... If you think that we are not a gullible bunch of idiots all of us, you can certainly think that we are perfectly able to think about your perpetual placebo counter argument by ourself and we dont wait for you to enlighten us about it... We are perfectly able to observe that, by accident , by chance or by experiments, when the Schumann generators are disconnected, the sound is always affected.... There is a placebo effect linked to all new devices, the main experiments is precisely related to the CUMULATIVE experiments that will rule the placebo effect out for an ultimate explanation... Adding for example shungite or Herkimer diamond to the S.G. will affect always in the same degree but not in the same direction the quality of sound.... No more placebo effect here.... Save for zealots repeating their mantras.... Think and experiment or let yourself stick to your equalizer.... |
This is where Geoff Kaitt is sorely missed. He could explain it and add a quiz, plus tell us how it affects wormholes. Thankfully, I haven’t encountered any rips in the fabric of reality when I used the one I bought. When i introduced him to my Schumann generators cabled grid modified by my "golden plates" and Herkimer diamond, he bought some but never give me a review about them... And never explained to me why they work if they work.... I figured it myself.... He knows already for sure what a Schumann Generator is...But never used them in a grid of 12 modified by G.P. connected by cables with a series of cheap one fron China like me.... Because of costs it is not possible to connect many Acoustic Revive S.G.... Then after reading their pubilicity i chose the chinese one 2 yeears ago....And he has never explained to me why they work, save explaining why they cant work because of antenna problem etc....It was not easy asking him questions...He answered in riddles.... It was funny tough....😊 Any way i created all my devices by myself and i never bought "tweaks"... I tried to think about the basic phenomena in audio at low or no costs by my own listenings experiments... I succeeed in some way.... For me it is something that decrease the noise level powerful destructive effect by adding a dithering frequency that is powerful because it was one near the atmosphere resonance with the earth....I am not a scientist but this is the more plausible beginning of an explanation i can think about.... The dithering frequency break the homogenuity of the noise floor encompassing "ice " coat of your house, hiding the details of the information... Remember that all the gear of your house are interconnected to a general noise floor...ALL of your electrical appliances add noise of his own making to the general noise floor.... I even created my own homemade devices to specidically decrease this noise floor, i dont only use the S.G. grid, i also use a grid of "Golden Plates" all along my house electrical grid decreasing also in an other way the general noise floor...I used them distributed from the exterrnal house main electrical meter box to the wall electrical plugs passing by the main router of the computer etc.... This is what i call the electrical grid embeddings controls.... I sell nothing, all is free, i sell creativity at peanuts price.... Audio is not upgrading gear it is implementing triple embeddings controls...Mechanical, electrical and acoustical.... Dont upgrade anything before embedding everything the right way.... |
On the music front, I liken it to a subwoofer’s effect on bringing in the whole spectrum of music to create overall better balance. Given the SR is a very, very low sub frequency, I would think it would be a similar thing, balancing out subsonics to ultimately bring the system to an even finer level of balance. Just a concept. Interestings remark... Adding subs not only add bass frequencies but also cause probably some "dither" effect...... It is this effect which is at the root of the effect of the S.G. not a special "placebo" effect mainly or a magical transformation of the hearing quality.... I compared the different noise floors of all the devices and gear in the house connected together producing a general noise floor to an ice that hide details of information under his noisy cold envelope.... The S.G. work breaking this ice, then decreasing the general noise floor and making each piece of gear to better communicate his information, letting more details emerge to the listener... This citation i repeat here give an idea about this "dither" concept:
…[O]ne of the earliest [applications] of dither came in World War II. Airplane bombers used mechanical computers to perform navigation and bomb trajectory calculations. Curiously, these computers (boxes filled with hundreds of gears and cogs) performed more accurately when flying on board the aircraft, and less well on ground. Engineers realized that the vibration from the aircraft reduced the error from sticky moving parts. Instead of moving in short jerks, they moved more continuously. Small vibrating motors were built into the computers, and their vibration was called dither from the Middle English verb "didderen," meaning "to tremble." Today, when you tap a mechanical meter to increase its accuracy, you are applying dither, and modern dictionaries define dither as a highly nervous, confused, or agitated state. In minute quantities, dither successfully makes a digitization system a little more analog in the good sense of the word. — Ken Pohlmann, Principles of Digital Audio[1]
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Is it Joseph Goebbels big lie? It is certainly some people trying to extort money out of others. Are these people just gullible? They certainly bought the big lie and subsidized the extortionists. Is your assessment of universal gullibility of all people save yourself, a little bit too "gross" and is it not itself an " explain all" mantra separating people in 2 groups, the enlightened one and the stupid one ? Is phenomena are all divided in : science approved facts by sceptics school or mass hysteria? And this last sentence, expressing a manufactured paranoia of your own is not the expression of a bit of hysteria? All that for a 10 bucks device you will never experiment with and vouch to prove being a delusion at all cost on your own "crusader" audio thread? Joseph Goebbels "big lie" about a chinese 10 bucks device really? Are you not insulting reality itself with this metaphor, and indirectly all people who died because of Goebbels by equating a mouse with an elephant ? Buying the "big lie" really? Is it not too much to draw a relation between the market of 10 bucks device purchase and genocide? And you think that putting under the bed for a better sleep this 10 bucks device is a social crime? How about the Lancet director affirming the scandal of corporate interest in a universal scientific fraud with their drug fraudulent studies? Is not worst than claiming better sleep if someone use a S.G. ? You know the benefit of cheap "placebo" effect with no negative effect? Why not using a 10 bucks one? https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4572812/ Think a few second about your own "rational" deluded hysteria in audio thread... I am amazed by "rational" stupidity at work..... And these last words: Trust your ears? Right. What shoud we trust at last? If not our ears ? An equalizer for not only first but LAST tool even if our ears dont like the result in our room? Because the equalizer know everything about acoustic there is to know you think, really? I dont know who you are, but i will not put you in the very "wise" people category.... |
Thanks for your impressions...
I am an open creative free spirit and i try to not invoke my beliefs or my doubts to justify my fear or laziness.... Call me a wacko.... I prefer to be an outcast than to be in the crowds of professional sceptics or in the crowds of zealots...
I dont fear and dont mind to be mocked because i sell nothing, save creativity, and all my devices are cheap and modified or my own complete homemade creations....It is impossible to call that "snake oil", and calling all of them at once " placebos" is preposterous...
«Crowds of lemmings, apes or humans act exactly the same if they are crowds»-Anonymus smith |
I would try it if i could, just to see....Good idea report it....If you try it....
But i am not sure if it is a good idea tough after thinking about it.... 😊 |
The sole fact that the S.G. reproduce the earth resonant frequency is not an explanation by itself, adding "dither" concept to it is a beginning of an explanation.... That was in my alleged "non sensical" post... |
mahgister talking nonsense. The concept of dither evoked in the citation imported from the book about digital audio is not non sense... Perhaps i explain thing badly, being not a scientist, but you could have tried to THINK about this "dither" concept before insulting.... I guess this thread and this resonator are not for someone who would ever question things. And perhaps thinking before making children coming to the world is a good idea, but it is not neceessary to have a complete theory before TRYING something cheap.... It will spare you to insult others in the meantime.... Anyway if you are not able to understand the "dither" concept in my citation, dont ask for any explanation it will be over your head... |
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Interesting post teo_audio thanks....
My best to you.... |
Ever since I bought Dumbo’s magic feather I can fly. What is that? A free charge accusation against all users for no reason, save your uncuriousity coupled with blinders? Or perhaps an audio enlightenement coming from your virginal working brain at birth ? Nothing of that, probably only trolling stupidity.... All bets are on ! Myself i will safely bet on the first or third ..... |
« Dont you doubt all day long about everything Groucho?
-Never before an erection, only after it»-Groucho Marx
«It is not the doubting act that matter then, is it the timing ?»-Harpo Marx
«You bet!»- Chico Marx |
To all interested, I recommend you Google schumann + resonance + health. There’s some interesting reading there... In asia they use the S.G. to increase well sleep.... I try it but i cannot vouch myself about this effect.... For the sound i can tough.... 😊 To continue my explanation about the S.G. in an electrical grid.... The Noise floor act like an ice on the sea cover erasing the subtle information of the waves ,obstructing the communication....Breaking this ice cover of the general noise floor by introducing a powerful frquence, S.G. frequence, increase the communication between components different specific noise floor, and made possible a better perception of information associated to the sound waves into the ears...But i guess that the S.G. also modify the distribution of pressure zone levels between molecules mass in the air of the room making it more dynamic....I am not a scientist it is only a description perhaps faulty of what i experience.... This citation convey an idea of what i speak about: …[O]ne of the earliest [applications] of dither came in World War II. Airplane bombers used mechanical computers to perform navigation and bomb trajectory calculations. Curiously, these computers (boxes filled with hundreds of gears and cogs) performed more accurately when flying on board the aircraft, and less well on ground. Engineers realized that the vibration from the aircraft reduced the error from sticky moving parts. Instead of moving in short jerks, they moved more continuously. Small vibrating motors were built into the computers, and their vibration was called dither from the Middle English verb "didderen," meaning "to tremble." Today, when you tap a mechanical meter to increase its accuracy, you are applying dither, and modern dictionaries define dither as a highly nervous, confused, or agitated state. In minute quantities, dither successfully makes a digitization system a little more analog in the good sense of the word. — Ken Pohlmann, Principles of Digital Audio[1]
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For many acoustically uncontrolled and inactivated room, and with a too high noise floor audio system and house, the Shumann generators will not produce an "audible" effect at all lost in the crystallized sea of noise...
This is the reason why the addition of S.G. CANNOT be the first embeddings controls...
We must control the electrical grid noise floor of the house and room first...
We must control the vibrations and resonance of the gear first....
We must introduce acoustical materials passive treatment and other active controls before an audible effect is produced in many case...in many case the effect are audible tough because no room, no house, no system are alike....
This has nothing to do with placebo effects.... |
All electrical components in a house are linked together through the grid....They created one field component: the specific electrical grid of your house...With his specific noise floor....
The S.G. are linked to this room grid.... They are like an ice breaker in a crystallised sea they break the ice of the general noise floor of the house...The information is then better between component..... This is my explanation but I am not a scientist by the way... They also change the pressurized atmosphere of the room like the ionizers do....
Put a piece of my "golden plate" on top of your S.G.....You will change the quality of the sound.... this will prove to you that this is NOT a "subjective" vodoo effect mainly....All is not vodoo or placebo....Superstition of misplaced concepts is not science...
"Golden plates" : Shungite thin plate for phone+ copper tape on the external side, if necessary add a tiny Herkimer diamond for balancing clarity.... I own 12 cheap S.G. in a cable synchonized connected grid....
It is one of my room tuner controlling grids....
The acoustic of a room is not described completely if described only by bouncing waves all along passive walls... Any room must be activated and i use also ionizers for that but also a grid of various resonators, tiny and bigger, but mainly 18 Helmholtz tubes and pipes that COMPLETELY transform my audio system and room ...
An ACTIVATED room is a room where the distribution and location of heteregenuous pressuring engines(H.T and P.) rectify completely the sound pressures levels, the relation between frequencies waves coming from the speakers and the walls at the rate of near one hundred back and forth in one second in any small room... Picture the atmosphere of your room like a very tight set of strings on a violin.....The H. room tuner grid act like a a slight touch on a set of springs or on the " strings " of incoming sets of waves, producing a tuned vibration ....
Helmholtz is the creator of room acoustic after Greek and Roman and probably Chinese before them....😁
Being audiophile is not buying gear or upgrading anything.... It is knowing how to install the gear in his 3 working dimensions, which i called embeddings of the audio system...
The acoustical embeddings by itself is more powerful than almost any upgrade of electronical design....
Imagine the 3 together.... |
