SACD vs ANALOG

I'm not sure my problems with digital sound are the same ones that plague other audiophiles. I say this because of glowing reports regarding some CDs that I find unlistenable.(The Telarc "German Requiem" is a prime example: Although widely used by some reviewers as a standard when evaluating equipment, I simply can't listen to it beyond about the first minute because of the accompanying noise---like a worn out stylus on an LP, or overmodulated signals on radio.)

In short, are we all talking about the same "deficiencies" when CDs are criticized?

What I find objectionable is an overriding "noise" that accompanies massed voices, violins, trumpets----any other instruments in that same range of frequencies----in protracted passages. Short sounds are not that noticeable, except for an extra artificial "crispness" on leading edges. It's hard to describe what I hear, but I know it's not supposed to be there, and it's not a consequence of my system.

An analogy that comes to mind is particularly true of violins in their upper registers: I'm reminded of looking at stars which appear to "twinkle". Violins on a digital recording tend to twinkle, but in an auditory manner, if you get my drift. Other times I can visual the fiddles being played using hand saws! Gadzooks! The basic problem is that, once noticed, it's difficult to get the notion out of one's head.

I was somewhat heartened by recent praise of SACD, and in particular by the encouraging fact that SACD machines are dropping in price, with the new Sony 9000ES as a good example, with cheaper models supposedly to be introduced this summer(?). Buoyed by this news, I recently visited an audio "salon" to audition the Sony, only to discover that the only classical disc they had was one of Glenn Gould at the piano (Is this, perhaps, the handwriting on the wall as to what's heading where?) -----I have no problem with an ordinary CD of piano! I was unable, therefore, to determine whether or not SACD is the answer to my prayers.
I have since bought three SACD hybrids---to cover me for now, perhaps to be used on "the next great thing" ("MORE perfect sound forever, AND BEYOND"? Shades of "Animal Farm"! heh,heh) if/when I decide to go that route. One of the three is the Water Lily Acoustics "Nature's Realm", which has been widely praised in all of the audio rags as the greatest thing since perforated-toilet-paper-on-a- roll, and yet I hear the same noise, albeit, of course, when played on my lowly Wadia 830. Does the noise go away when it's played on a proper SACD machine? I guess I'll have to schlepp over to the same "salon" and give it a proper hearing on the Sony. I strongly suspect I'll hear the same noise, however. From what I've read lately, SACD's biggest contribution is extended frequency response----or am I missing other attributes? Is the hand saw truly replaced by a proper bow? Do the violins no longer twinkle? Does the midrange no longer sound like a jackhammer? I tell you, it's gonna hafta be a BIG change to convince me that SACD is truly better. If it's not, I'm betwixt de Debill and da deep blue sea, because there's not much selection in new analog recordings, and I find most of the remastered LPs rather disappointing, both from the standpoint of dated performances, really not that great sonically. I've already reduced most of my listening to works involving small chamber orchestras and string/piano trios, quartets, quintets, etc., which I can enjoy on good CDs. (I must say, however, that I've also truly enjoyed the hybrid disc of Stokowski's "River/Plow That Broke the Plains", on Vanguard. I don't remember Vanguard being that good back in the '50s/'60s!. Maybe there is more tolerable stuff out there, but how does one know, prior to actually making a purchase? I learned long ago that reviewers can't be trusted. I strongly suspect they don't listen to half the stuff they "review", merely feeding off each others' "reviews", or paying off a debt of some sort (free review copies, anyone?)! (A good example in recent memory was an Everest CD of Stravinsky's "L'Histoire du Soldat", praised in "Fi" as I recall. Although it's one of my favorites, the only recording I then had was an old mono LP. So, as a result of the review, I bought the CD, only to discover that it starts in midstream!----an entire phrase was omitted from one of the movements!

I've made modest improvements in my analog equipment, because I'm up in the air regarding where this will all shake out. I'd like to think that SACD, if really good, will win out over DVD-A. Since I'm almost exclusively into classical music, I shudder to think what will happen to the already-meager selection of classical repertoire if DVD-A wins out. I get the feeling that scheme will concentrate on HT and youth-orientated pap.

I'd be very interested in hearing comments from others. Are we all in this together, or am I hearing some objectionable stuff exclusively through my ears alone?
Jim

I am fully aware of the dual layer concept, and I realize I am hearing a conventional CD when played on the Wadia---I didn't just fall off a beet cart, heh,heh! Please re-read my initial post.

My point is that it's hard to believe the WLA sound will be sufficiently improved as a SACD, since it's pretty dreadful to start with, at least to my ears. BTW---that particular disc was auditioned by R.E. Greene (as one of his "Recommended Recordings") in all three digital forms in TAS, with brief comments in issue 124, with a detailed review promised in a future issue.(Nothing has appeared in later issues. As with many things promised by TAS, I'll believe it when I see it!) His initial reaction was that DVD is superior. He found some "high frequency anomalies" (wonder if that's what I'm hearing as an ordinary CD as well?) in the SACD version.
Stay tuned.
Jim

Rcprince----points well taken, and I thank you for your response. As for the matter of equipment, my complaints would be the same if I were listening on a Bose Wave Radio:
Some CDs sound great, while others are trash----and some of the "trash" is praised to the Heavens in the audio rags. My system, BTW, while modest, is a bit above the aforementioned Bose, consisting of the Wadia, ARC LS2 preamp, Bryston 4B-ST pwr amp, Sound Lab A-3s. Analog is Rega Planar 3, Sumiko BPS, Camelot Lancelot phono amp. So I don't feel what I'm hearing is equipment-related, since some sources please while others irritate.

I have the Florestan Trio disc, and it's great, but most ordinary CDs of small chamber groups present no problem to my ears.(The Eroica Trio discs are superb, in my estimation. With mastering by Nickrenz/Aubort, I'd be truly astounded if they were anything less! I value their LPs on Nonesuch/Turnabout above most in my collection.) It's the big symphonic/choral works that really get to me----massed violins, trumpets, male voices, etc., sound as if someone is accompanying them with a coffee can full of gravel. As I said before, once heard it's impossible to ignore.

I've found most---but not all---Delos/Eargle efforts to be quite listenable. Tremendous selection also.

You mentioned Reference Recordings, and I find most of them very enjoyable ---almost entirely devoid of the anomalies I'm hearing on other CDs.

That one Telarc of the Brahms Requiem has me baffled, however, to the extent that I wonder seriously if my ears are the only two that have this severe a problem. (I suffer from tinnitus---severe at times, hardly noticeable at others--- and I've wondered if perhaps there is a reverse synergy as a result of induced distortion (intermodulation?)in my auditory system. As I said before, that disc has been held up by several reviewers as a good reference for use in evaluating equipment. A friend suggested that perhaps I simply got a bad disc, which I find hard to believe. I've been under the (false?) impression that a CD either plays, or it doesn't. (It's either "perfect forever" or it's mute, heh,heh.)

Your comment regarding the "box" sound reminded me of my first impression of the WLA "Nature's Realm" hybrid SACD. Admittedly, I've only listened to the ordinary CD layer so far, but within the first minute, it sounded as if my glorious transparent, open-as-all-outdoors Sound Labs had themselves been packed into boxes! The SACD layer has its work cut out if it is to correct that.

It's obvious to me that the only thing I can do for now is to make a trip to the nearest Sony dealer (in Nashville), armed with my three hybrid SACDs, and decide "yes! 8^)" or "no. 8>(". If "no", I'll simply forget about the 9000ES; if "yes!", I may buy that macchina diabolo, (and then wonder what I'm gonna listen to, however!). I've been into audio, admittedly sporadically, for some fifty years, and I cannot recall having to make some of the decisions with which I'm presently confronted. I'm obviously not a cheapskate when it comes to equipment purchases, but I hate to throw good money after bad. I never thought I'd see the day when equipment, in particular speakers, outstrips the available "software"! Maybe the problem is that some present-day equipment is too revealing of the software's faults.

I appreciate your response, and thank you for the invitation to audition discs in your home. Since I live in the middle of TN, that would be a bit inconvenient for me! I am grateful for the invitation, nevertheless.
Best-
Jim

Rcprince--- I guess "congested" (constipated? heh,heh) is a good characterization regarding the WLA disc. I have no sense of air or imaging with the disc---almost as if I had a single Patrician, or Voice of the Theatre, sitting in front of me (Those go back a few years, eh?).

My other hybrid SACD is the Vanguard Stokowski/Virgil Thompson, and I really enjoy it. It's amazing for a 40 year
old recording to have the soundstage/imaging it has. It does sound a bit artificial in places,however, at least on my rig, what with some percussion and banjo sounding as if they were spotlighted at the front of the stage. Of course, with Leopold's reputation for the spectacular, he may well have placed them there. I never would have thought He would have allowed anyone to upstage Him, however! 8^)
Jim

I now have three of the four, I think, Eroica's. I've got several analog and digital recordings of the same pieces they've done, including four versions of the Shostakovick Piano Trio #2, but when I see those lovely gals on the jewel case, I can't resist buying (what a sexist thing to say!). As far as I'm concerned, they are top-notch musicians, regardless of the bad press they received in one of the audio rags recently---the guy must be the prototype
male chauvinist pig!. I think it proves the paraphrase: those who can play, play/those who can't play, criticize those who can!

Rcprince---- I manage to learn something new everyday, in spite of myself! Case in point:

Tonight I picked up the lengthy booklet that accompanied the WLA "Nature's Realm" hybrid and actually read the blurb (by none other than the Robert E. Greene I mentioned previously).
Turns out that the recording was made using the Blumlein mike method, in which two mikes are used, with one directly facing the orchestra (M),the other facing away by 90 degrees(S). Left signal is derived as M+S, right as M-S. The angle established by the listener to the speakers must then be 90 degrees. A-3s being rather hard to move, as suggested in the booklet I simply repositioned myself to establish that angularity, and the soundstage/imaging opened up rather nicely. It's a new experience, listening in the nearfield---some 3 ft. from the line of the speaker fronts!---but it's the best I can do with my present arrangement. I imagine it would be pretty good with a room big enough to establish the proper relationship at a normal distance.

I never thought I'd again see the necessity of reading instructions for playing a record! Reminds me of the old (here I go again, showing my age!) Cook recordings, especially the VERY early stereo jobs with a complete track for left, and another one for right, and a special tone arm with two cartridges, which were the very devil to synchronize!

Anyhoo----I now have more respect for the WLA recording, and I also know why Greene is so high on it----he was instrumental in making the damned thing!

Live and learn.
Jim