Rich; organic true balanced amp w good detail $6k

great ideas so far guys- I think we on the same page

John (Jmcgrogan2)- what are you using for speakers; preamp; and what is the size of your listening room? Also- have always been curiuous about the '2' after your Agon name- was there ANOTHER Jmcgrogan already? :-)

Dennis- yes, have heard great things about Vac, but have never heard them myself. What is the best VTL amp? I heard the 250's running in triode mode are very good, but also that the Signature models have the best sound, and some feel that you need to get to the 450 Sigs to get the best VTL offers...

well guys- just got home from the gym, and listening to one of my fav's- Pharoah Sanders Quartet's (what a great tenor sax player) double-disc 'Crescent with Love' on my 2nd system (47 labs digital; recently acquired Air Tight ATC-2 preamp- talk about suave & velvety- time to pour a glass of California Cab and chill for a while...)

Tvad- yours is a system I would really like to hear- in fact, one other company my speaker designer said he respects is Silverline, and I understand Ralph at AS makes a great preamp. Perhaps the Belles is worth checking out- there is definitely a loyal legion of fans, however am not sure if they have a model that is fully balanced- will have to look into that. The fact that you replaced a set of Vac's better amps says something...

Cyto- thanks for the tips on the Sistrum 'tweaking'- I will check into that- up here in Canada we have good access to Maple :-) Hey- GREAT recommendation on the Lamms! In fact, a good friend of mine now has M1.1's to drive his newly acquired Verity Parsifal Encores. He has always had a Lamm L1 preamp, and to say he is loving the new setup/synergy would be an understatement! Re: VTL, it sounds like the 450 Sig's would be the way to go. I am only slightly hesitant due to re-tubing costs, as this system also doubles as a 2-ch HT setup for movies, etc., so it is on a LOT- if I go tubes, as long as they are run conservatively (as in my preamp), then that's ok I guess. Manley- have not heard them. Music Reference? That sounds interesting- have you heard them, and what did you feel was their best amp(s) sonically?

Bob_reynolds- I believe the output impedance to be 50 ohms for the unbalanced outputs, and 78 ohms for the balanced- would this affect anyone's recommendations?

John (will the 'real' JMcgrogan please stand up :-) another great system- that vinyl rig must sounds sweet, and I like that room size! Almost the perfect 1.6:1 length to width ratio (I think Cardas talked about that).

Grannyring- another Belles recommendation- wow- they seem to be the winner in my little poll tonight! I will try to check them out, but I have never come across them up here in Toronto.

Thanks again guys, and keep it comin'! Btw- while riding the bike at the gym, I was fascinated by the Democratic Presidential candidate debates. I am Canadian, but find this an interesting race- Hilary seemed pretty composed tonight, and answered questions in a multi-faceted way. Is it just me, or did Edwards seem to 'team up' a little w Obama...

Tvad- have you heard the Lamm's up against the Belles? If not, regardless of the comparison, what are your sonic impression of the Lamm 1.1/1.2 amps? I think my buddy got his Lamm 1.1 monos for just over $7k USD used- from what I understand a good deal...

Hey- I was just reading up on the 150A ref's- they seem like a great choice- how hot do they run though, and are they meant to be turned off when not in use? Do they do texture like tubes?

Cyto- thanks for the thorough comments/comparisons- didn't realize the VTL amps run their tubes that conservatively- a good thing. Question- you indicate the 'new' VTL450 signature has computer-controlled biasing. If one is buying these used, how 'recent' is this change? Also- are the 450 Sigs not 'room heaters'?

Tvad- thanks for Pass reco- was also thinking of their 30 watt XA-30.5. As for Israel, we talk often- he lives 10 minutes from me! There is no point though in even mentioning SS to him- he is a tube guy through and through-preferring SET's mainly...

excellent advice- thanks again everyone for the thoughtful and informed responses & recommendations- it's been a LONG time since I started a thread in this forum, and you guys have not let me down- I will look into all of the suggestions- cheers.

Sutts in Toronto

Jmcg- yes, re: the Pass, I don't believe the XA-60 is balanced, but I could be wrong- I only know the newer XA-30.5 is. Belles MB-01? Hmmm- any writeups on this one? As for the VTL 450- I am sure the newer version would be mucho denaro $$$! You had Claytons? cool- it sounds like the new M-200's would fit all parameters except for cost ($9,500 new). One amp everyone seems to agree on though are the Lamms.

Rleff- have never heard Moscode- is it also a true balanced design? Do they have lower powerered versions, and how would you describe their sonic signature?

T_bone- EAR- yes! Have heard some great stuff about that guy's products. I will have to see if they have a Canadian dealer somwhere- would really like to give them a listen- would the 861's be the sweeter-sounding of the two? (compared to the 890)

Apache- yes, Manley was mentioned earlier- good thought, but am not sure if they run balanced, and how hard they are on tubes, in fact not even sure which are their best models.

Tvad- can't argue with you there- only 'Izzy' as I call him will point me to an SET, but then his priorities are only music listening. This system is on my main floor, and is used a lot for movies as well, so a bit more power and a lower noise floor is nice (hence the 'quieter' fully balanced advantage). *All that being said though, if I hear something that really blows me away, I will overlook some of the criteria for the resulting sonic benefit. I am going to investigate these Belles 150A Ref Monos you suggested- are they full enough sounding in the mids?

Thanks John- sorry if any confusion caused- I will admit being curious as I have not heard the majority of the recommendations, but have read good things about several of them. Staying the course for true balanced would be ideal though, and the Clayton is the one that intrigues me the most- thanks for the dealer tip.

Tvad- Monarchy? I believe they also make an SE-160? Have you heard the Monarchy amps up against anything else?

Tvad- I am a previous fan of PP triode amps, and would gladly return to that option as well. What are some of the better PP triode amps you have heard? I had a older pair of modded altec 1570B's that were very good...

Sc- there is a local dealer for Ayre- which of their amps would sound the richest in the mids?

I guess I better chime back in here on the balanced thing. The preamp is definitely a true balanced design, as is the dac. So ideally, it would be nice to maintain this all the way through, hence the original criteria. However, if another contender appears that is truly more musical and synergistic, and is NOT a true balanced design, I will consider it.

Tvad- good comment on the rhetorical vs practical re: the balanced viewpoint. In fact, I spoke to my buddy tonight with the Lamm M1.1's. There is a balanced in, but he nor I are sure if it is a true balanced circuit, I suspect perhaps not, it is simply an XLR connector- someone please correct me if I am in error. From what I understand, the new Clayton M-200 monos are a true balanced design, but I will get this re-confirmed. In fact I spoke to David Belles today, who strongly recommended his new M200 monos, however they are a single-ended design...

Sc53- re: Ayre, I remember now hearing it once at a local dealer, and would agree with Jmcgrogan2- dynamic extended and fairly transparent, however there is no way I would compare them to certain tube amps I have had- a good recommendation though none the less, and thank you for joining the thread!

John- interesting- you're the first one to mention 'thin & edgy' re: the Belles- hmmm- that has me worried a bit... But no, I don't feel I am 'on my own'- all of the help here has been great! thanks again for continuing this thread with me.

Bill- there is just something about the Monarchy that doesn't put it over the top for me, and I can't explain what, but understand that they are limited in certain ways from a bandwidth perspective, and I don't feel they would be the 'end of the line' for me... The Canary recommendation is interesting though- in fact, Israel of Coincident was selling some of them for a while to his customers, especially the 339's- they did have a nice full-bodied quality to them, but of course single-ended, and the tueb replacement costs scare me!

Maybe I need to get out of town and go hear my buddy's Lamm M1.1's and that may convince me to save up and wait for a used pair. There is another dealer an hour or so away that has the VTL 450 Sigs- if they have a triode mode, as my buddy led me to believe, that could prove enticing. Well- thanks again everyone, fantastic recommendations all round!