Hi Newbee, It is not anything to do with distortion or feedback or limitations of my system, wow, did I say that?. We are trying to "reproduce a recording". At a certain level you have dynamics and a natural level on an recording, whether the engineer etc got this correct is up to them and I feel that if they got it wrong well.. it is just another poor recording. I assume we can all agree there are good and bad recordings. What makes good or poor recordings? First thing is the engineer/producer, can we change any of this? No. The second is pressing, can we change any of this? No. Third is condition, the answer is a little, as we can clean it but groove damage and scratches are ancient history. I would like to read a few chapters of your book, as I suspect I may be the only one who will be agreeing with myself but I will give it my best shot.
Hi Nsgarch, It is not live music, it is a recording that we are reproducing, warts and all.
Hi Chite, So, of the Mercuries or RCAs which one have it correct or perhaps better or more to your liking? An RCA played at the reference level is not preposterously loud, perhaps the Mercurie is wrong? There must be a reason it sound best at loud volumes, what is the reason? Dont ever compromise.
Bob |
Hi Viridian, I like your analogy to a car. If you keep the throttle (volume control) steady you will actually go faster downhill (increase volume) and slower uphill (decreased volume-aka dynamics). Unless of course if you are using cruise contol to keep the speed steady at 28mph which applies and decreases the throttle (volume) like a schoolboy listening to Van Halen, turn it up Dude I like this part, at the start of the guitar solo or turn it down this is the quiet acoustic section. Please don't take offense to that, just, sort of, kidding. Seriously, do you turn the volume up and down during a recording?
Bob |
Hi Atmasphere, we may disagree on this but at least we agree on Laverdas! We cant be too far out. I will have to answer your and WGH respones tomorrow as I am going out now to listen tonight, and need to contemplate for good responses. At least I have one response sort of on my side, thanks WGH for listening.
Bob |
Hi guys and gals, Dopogue and Timruh, trust me you can take my post very seriously.
This is something that occured to me after many years of listening. I have stated before that I never listen casually, you know doing the dishes, reading and talking etc, I take it very seious. I used to listen at different levels and turn it up and down as the cut/LP required and realised something was wrong with this. This did take me several years to figure this out but I am now convinced that this this is correct. I believe a system needs to be tuned at this level or one that fits the limitations of your system, this cannot be achieved overnight. By that I mean you have to work at this and set your system up with this in mind. Listen to all of your LPs at the same level at all times when listening critically. Who cares what it sounds like as you walk about the room?
I feel that this is a matter of dynamics and bass intergration. This took me quite some time to figure this out. If your system cannot handle the dynamics within a single cut, this is something most definatly you need to work on and then move up to all LPs
I feel like Darwin at the monkee trials or Galieo trying to convine the Catholic inquisition. The only difference is that I have not been proven correct yet.
Bob |
Hi Gregm, Well thats just the start of it as I have said it is dependant on your systems limitations but regardless of that, start off listening at one setting. Is your system good at this level? OK, listen to another then another LP are they good at these levels? Adjust bass and overall volume keep doing this until you get the bass and overall levels correct. Some LPs will need more, some less, bass and overall levels, you will discover that many Lps are not mastered correctly. I believe you listen to them for what they are, but if they are wrong, then they are wrong. This does not make them unlistenable though there is still quite a bit of leeway for compression, noise etc.
Now we have to assume that many LPs are not correct, does anyone disagree with that? What are we looking/listening for? Should we adjust our systems to poorly recorded music, condition or pressing? I think not.
This will take some time, it did for me to work this out. It was not easy for Galieo either to convince that the world was not the center of the universe.
Bob |
Hi Mechans, First off it was not a diatribe, obsessive compulsive? Perhaps. Certainly not tongue in cheek. But why would I spend so much time and energy on audiophile persuasion only to listen to my system like a cheap car radio?
As I said the Monkees on Colegems is not what you want to set your system to. It is just what it is and what you said it is. Do we try to get this LP correct? NO, it is impossible to get this LP correct. This and probably 80 percent of all LPs, classical included.
By the way I am a nurse I can diagnose myself.
Bob |
Hi Dopogue, Yeah, as it turns out Darwin is correct.
Bob |
Hi Newbee, sorry for the comparisons, and the misspelling (I apologise to Galileo's daughter as I did just read "her" book several months ago) but really just in jest, OK. I dont take myself or you that seriously. Please I do not want to get into a pissing match so I will not go there. If you would like to hear my thoughts please be nice to me.
Bob |
Hi Newbee, my thoughts are just that sometimes, mine. And here is the difficult part with music, that when one reveals themself as an artist, a participant, an enthusiast one opens their soul which can be revealing and perhaps a bit scarey. I most definatly do want to be taken seriously. This is not speculation or casual thought in a bored moment. I have thought about this and practiced this for sometime now. It may or may not work for you, as anything in life, including audio. What I will try to explain, and please give me some time and patience here, is that this works for me and I believe (disclamer, IMHO) should work for others. As tubes, SS, electrostats, cables etc work for some but not for everyone, why is this? I have some theories on this but... I will try to be more serious in my thoughts.
I will get back to you on your questions ASAP
Bob |
Hello, Hi Newbee, Timrhu. What I think we are dealing with first off is energy, there is only so much energy available in the our LPs grooves. It is to our benifit to have that energy available to us as much as possible at all times. Now the idea is to transform that energy and control it. For all of our LPs equally.
"We" all seem to think that records are dynamically challanged. How can that be if we need to adjust our overall gain within even a single cut, no less different LPs? If I have gain enough to produce 110db from one Lp but others play at 80db at the same gain setting is that not alot of dynamics possible that is only limited by the LP we choose to put on? And by what the producer put on the LP?
When the gain level is set at a certain level the electrical energy is there to convert our mechanical energy into music with macro and micro dynamics. We need to have a certain amt of electrical energy available to us at any moment for every LP. Without distortion and whithout noise.
But it must be controlled. It must be controlled at the speakers, at the amp, at the preamp stage, the interface IE phono, cartridge, tonearm, table. And it must also be controlled in the room with its interactions.
Now we dont ever want to overdrive any of our equipment and want "perfect" equipment. This means there is a point where things fall apart from an electrical standpoint and also from a mechanical standpoint.
My "idea" is to get the most out of my system. Why did I have such a hard time in the past? Like most I would fiddle with the volume control. Up and down looking for that correct point for that LP. I always found it limiting. If I turned it up I may have used all of my dynamics, my room overloaded, my speakers distorted, If I turned it down micro detail dissapeared, and I lost the ability for upward dynamics because my electrical and mechanical power was no longer available.
Now this is the way that I tuned my system. I wanted enough dynamics available to me at all times for every LP since we "know" LPs are dynamically limited. I set my volume contol to a comfortable volume. Listen to LPs, what is "correct" what is "wrong" with this setting? Did I have a mid bass bloat? Perhaps, now this would limit me till I could find the problem, was it the crossoverpoint? Did moving the sub help? Or was it something else? I knew I could not go on till I got this correct because it affects every LP. Now assume this corrected, I said to myself now I can turn it up but now there was perhaps a high freq beaming, move the chair adjust the toe in of speakers, fix first reflection point whatever it takes. Perhaps it was a problem with rumble in the table we know that we dont want to listen to that so why go past my gain setting when now that rumble will be there and exacerbated by doing this? You have to fix this and on and on. Doing this gave me the greatest micro and macro dynamic range, not just upward but also to the noise floor. I will have to refine this thought as while even to me this seems simplistic and obvious, is it? The main thing is listen to all of your LPs at the same level and take time doing this. If you listen at lower levels do not make any adjustments while listening there.
But what I am really trying to do here is to never excede the sytem capabilities and room interaction while still maintaing maximum dynamics within your systems capabilities. The thing is there is no LP out there that should overload your system or room. No LP that is cut too low. If your system is not able to handle the dynamics of any Lp there must be something wrong somewhere. If the bass is correct on this LP but the high freq are not adj/tune the high freq. If the bass sounds bloated or slow correct it or realise that is the way the LP sounds.
If any LP is so far off, do we want to adjust our system for this? No. There is a certain correctness, if you will, and it has little to do with the overall volume. I would put certain records aside to reexamine later and have found that they were neither "too loud or too soft" but due to my system settings they appeared that way. Also we must understand that some records are to be played loud or soft, New Age Steppers (dub music) will play loudly, spoken word will play naturally. Of course some producers/artists got this more correct than others, but dont throw the baby out with the bath water. A LP is what it is, listen to it and find the limitations that are obscuring details or that are inherent in that recording. Noise is another factor pops clicks, inherent noise or rumble in a particular LP, this will not change now from LP to LP and with the volume set correctly should minimise this problem, though big pops will still be present and with the dynamics in my system be scarey. But I for one am most certainly not adjusting my system to a noisy LP.
Now when I did this with my system, I achieved a naturalness and correct overall volume with all LPs. NO one LP has an advantage due to "equalising" with the volume control. You hear each LP for what it really is. That is one of my audiophile goals.
Hey Mechams, should you really be diagnosing people over the internet? Are we not here as a discussion forum? Have I offended you? And please keep your wife out of this, if she has something to say to me let her do the "talking"
Bob |
Hi Jaybo, Exactly. But what makes an incorrect pressing as you mentioned better? Turning it up does not help if it was pressed too loud and turning it down does not help if pressed low. What helps this LP? Nothing, if it is wrong. Though as I said you can still listen to it as such to find out what they did to F it up. Dont be so quick to blow me off, you may indeed learn something. And again it is not totally about the pressing and volume. It is also about setting your system up, to be able to hear these differences for what they really are. And to learn to know what is correct.
Bob |
Hi Wgh, Yes I thought about that, and I do have mixed feelings and thoughts on this. I believe, though, that I have achieved the correct approach on this also. Assuming that all LPs have a baseline noise and feel (that completeness that we listen for) to the vinyl sound, this is maintained. Also that, again the correctly balanced LPs are the ones that shine through. I think that the Fletcher Munson curve is maintained through your systems overall sound balance and its interface with the room that is of much more importance in the reproduction of vinyl playback, rather than the volume of the recording which is still maintaining the reference level even if it was not recorded at or pressed at the correct level. I think this is why LPs of different play back levels can still sound cohesive. So the systems gain levels and LPs underlying sound and its ability to reproduce the F-M curve is most important.
Bob |
Hi Piedpiper, Listen, I presented an idea or theory as I first called it for discussion. I said I was sorry for my reference to some famous people, and to make it more clear, let me say that I am in no way shape or form like great men of the past, except for the fact that I felt as I was being attacked as a fool as they were and that was my reference. That little faux pas got out of hand and I am sorry for it. Perhaps I should have said I felt as if I were at a murder trial and the jury had allready made its mind up that I was guilty before I entered the court room. I should not have said that I was was just waiting to be proved correct, I assure you it was in jest and as we know sometimes things are taken wrong or said in haste or whatever.
I am not a scientist, a journalist, nor am I mentally deranged. I am not asking anyone to wait for a comet with a glass of Cool Aid in hand. Nor was I asking you to spend money on my idea or theory as others do with at least as little validity for improvement of playback.I told you my ideas and I think some valid reasons for it. I also told you my "audiophile" goals in evaluating LPs. Wheather it is "correct" or not for you, is up to you. I do not feel that I am the one being narrow minded, as I am the one who presented the "idea". Perhaps those that gave it no second thought are the ones who are "narrow minded"?
I am sure you are a good recording engineer, and do what you can to make a good recording and I applaud you for that. But there is no denying that there are some pretty poor recordings, pressings and abused LPs out there and that this is "my way" of approaching that. I also mentioned my listening habits which most people take exception to. I also tried to explain, perhaps not very well, how this helps me set up my system. If I appeared to come off too strong and self righteous this is not my personality nor my intent.
Thank you for agreeing that some of my points are perhaps valid.
I think my next thread will be, what is the best cable for $5,000? He said with a hint of comic sarcasam LOL:)
Bob |
Hi Inpepinnovations, I must say that I like your idea though I have a few problems with it for the way I listen. I dont believe this works for me, but I will keep it in mind.
Marking every record for the last 40 years.
Where is the good doctor when you need a diagnosis, and you thought I was obsessive compulsive? LOL:) etc
Nurse Bob
Just kidding, I am only a nurse and am not allowed to diagnose. I just follow doctors orders. Not kidding. |
Hi Wgh, I dont feel I have stripped all emotion from my LPs and turned it into a science project, just the opposite. While I am on my search for "great" recordings, and apparently all recordings are great if you just twiddle the knobs enough, and my quest for some delusional ideal sound intergration, I will think of you for at least trying to understand and have an intelligent conversation. Perhaps, now, we know why "high end" is dying.
Thank you,
Bob |
Hi Inpepinnovations, I am sorry you "did not get it" (the inside joke) it was in reference to "Dr." Mechans remarks to me in several of his posting in this thread. I hope no offense was taken and I am in no way trying to diagnose you or insult you as "Dr." Mechan has insulted me.
That being said your idea has merit.
Bob |
Hi Vincentkkho, nice analogy and it does work very well with our audio reproduction. If you do indeed think about it. If a film has a red or blue hue to it all of you pictures will be like that. If your lens is out of focus all of your pictures are out of focus. If all of your film is saturated all of your pictures will be.
You need to be able to reproduce the loudest and quietest LP in your collection at the same gain setting. If any LP is so loud or so quiet as not to be able to listen to it, then that LP must by its very nature must be so completely out of range of normalcy (for those of you with a psychology bent) that you should considered that LP unplayable or it is a system/room problem either frequency response based or lack of dynamics.
I have no such records in my collection. I have a lot of poorly recorded/pressed LPs. But there is not one that meets this criteria and yes I have a lot of dynamic recordings, so don't go there. But if a record is so far off from other LPs in terms of dynamics, noise levels, sonic qualities, frequency range etc.. Its a bad recording, why listen to it? If your system or room is colored/saturated every LP will be colored or saturated.
If your system is unable to play the reference level 83db, then there must be a system or room acoustics problem. If it is system based then it it either distortion or a frequency response problem within your system. If it is room based, it is a frequency response problem. This is ultimatly not a problem, you just have to realise this is the limitations of your system and work within these confines. Tune your system within its limitations as you cannot exced them.
You want to ideally get your system to be as full range (20 to 20K )as possible at that gain setting, with 83db reference level maximum. Find a gain setting that is appropriate for your system/room with 83db maximum. You cannot just set for 83db reference level you need to approach it. Your gain setting limit (not including the max 83db limit) is the loudest or quietest LP that you can play unless you want to disregard those Lps as anomalies. Do your own research on 83db reference levels, and you have to find your own test LP for this, I have several test LPs and just like all records some are more "correct" than others. For LP playback you must use an LP as using any computer or CD based test will not correlate when you then playback an LP.
The more you have to change gain settings, the more your system is lacking dynamics. This is an indication of system compression. This is a serious problem.
So don't be a school boy , figure this out. Your ears will love you for it.
Fortunately LPs are like women, there is usually something I can find that I like about them.
The ridiculous post of "what is the best $5000 cable" that I posted as a joke has better response than this thread. A pure indicator of the fact that most audiophiles don't care or don't want to be able to listen to great LPs or tune their system properly.
Listen to the music, the answer is right there in your hands.
Just another diatribe.
Stir pot add spice.
Bob |
Hello,
Mechams wrote, "BTW the length of many of your posts tells me something else. Since you are so very clever and well informed, a comedian and a wordsmith and a medical professional. Please tell me what that is a sign of."
Hi Mechams, it is a sign of, that even after all of your years of being a doctor you still have a hard time believing that nurses are as intelligent as you. :)
Now can we get back to the business at hand?
Your friend,
Bob |
Hi Buffyjames, I am not sure we are on the same track. You say "each time I play a piece the dynamics change" but the dynamics do not change for a LP, it is a constant. Are you refering to live music? We are reproducing a recording. Sure some LPs are more dynamic than others but we cannot change each individual LPs dynamics. We are not talking about live music. That is why I believe you need to listen to your recordings at the same level every time and each LP at the same level.
The 83db level is at 1000hz via a test LP, all freqencies should be the same level if you are able to obtain that, if not limit you system to a lower level to obtain a more even frequency response. The LP that you select determines the overall gain, dynamics and noise levels along with your system and room of course. It is not 83 db for each LP, such as Ineppovations idea of adjusting each LP so it reaches 90 db for each LP that he listens to. No,it is inherent in each LPs dynamics, gain, noise etc. and should be reproduce faithfully for better or worse.
It is true that each LP is recorded at different levels and every LP has its own dynamics and noise levels. Why do you want to manipulate them by changing the overall volume levels? You cannot change dynamics or noise levels or for that matter the LPs overall gain and sonic virtues and vices by adjusting your volume control. This throws it back on the engineer/producer and pressing, we have no control over this. Some got it right, or within limits, and others screwed it up and continue to screw it up to this day.
Bob
" Mr. Spock, sometimes, I think if I hear the word frequency one more time I'll cry" |
HI JPV, It is an ongoing thing with MDs and nurses. Really an inside joke. Sure they are "smarter" than us no doubt, when it comes to "doctoring", but they need us as much as we need them. It is though, just such a PIA waiting for them to call back when you need them!:)
Bob |
