Thanks much George. I had seen that page, and frankly, don't completely understand it. (And I'm a graph info type of guy.) What I got out of that piece was that the 3.6s tend to operate at pretty low ohms. And that consistent draw on low ohms would be a stress to the amplifier. But how much was much, was still a puzzle to me. And, honestly, I'm still not sure how the whole system should be set up: If I go with something of higher quality (ML, Bryston, etc.) These have no volume control, which implies to me that these are downstream from a pre-amp or controller of sorts. What type of solution might bring me CD, DVD, NAS, Internet Radio, perhaps HT? A pre-amp, plus one of the commonly recommended solutions? Or is this unit, then plus an amplifier, something toward what I'm looking for? Or for that matter, is that unit standalone enough? (I suspect not, as I saw no power ratings.) And if anyone can answer, I'm still confused over the power ratings. Many have said here that the 3.6s should have 200 watts, plus, at a minimum. The Denon I had been looking at was rated 9 channel, at 150wpc. Or something like 260 overall. Is that sufficient? Or is it 150 per channel toward the recommended >200? Or is it two channels, 300 toward the >200? Forgive me for this most basic question. And, if it's that per-channel number in quest of that >200, might it be possible to somehow bi-amp two of the nine channels to achieve an effective 300w? I'm surely not using the overhead speakers anytime soon. |
And if I may re-ask the question, Might that Denon AVR-x7200 unit be an acceptable start to this system (with the 3.6s)? And might that be used as a pre-amp or controller to a future upgrade where a more powerful amp is connected in line later? If that's the case, it may be a viable path forward as it gives me the various features I would like (CD, DVD, Internet radio, Airplay, etc.) and still stay within my budget, while a later upgrade would be a further enhancement. Any thoughts, recommendations from this community on this? Thanks! |
Thanks all! I'm getting a great understanding of all of this! And for that, I'm very grateful. And thanks, Tis, I was wondering about that 6 ohm (not 4, or even 2) 10% THD.
I'm curious for your thoughts on this: One of the possibilities is to use the Denon 7200, but employ the preamp outs on the two fronts for a more powerful, matched amp to the Thiel. (I'm looking at either a vintage Mark Levinson 23, or a current Krell KAV250a).
I understand the weak link to the chain for ultimate quality of output would be the Denon, but perhaps with a quality secondary amp, this might be minimized. Plus it would give me the ability to at least have some music and functionality while I saved up for the rest of it (provided that underpower didn't destroy either speakers or amp in the meantime.)
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And georgelofi, I've just re-read your graph from the third post at the top. And I understand it now. Wow, these things are like under 4 ohms almost the whole listening frequency! FWIW, I spoke with someone at Theta today who felt that the decision to go with such a low impedance on these was one error on Jim Thiel's part. Now, I know nothing about speaker-making, and surely defer to whatever decisions he made, which is why I got these speakers. So I would suspect that there is a quality choice in the mix there. More difficult to drive, for sure; but with that being addressed (hopefully in one of the scenarios I've described above) it's an ideal match. |
I've re-read these posts again several times. Thanks all. I'm getting a very good (well, better) understanding. And tis49, I am focused on your solution as what I really need, and think I misunderstood it. I think your best setup would be to get an 2 channel integrated or pre/power that has HT pass through. Then add a lesser expensive a/v receiver for the HT capability. By my post above this one, I was attempting to shoehorn the quality part into the HT part. But you're talking about a very different thing, right? Not the passing of signal from, say, Marantz pre-amp to quality amp; but the passing of HT ITSELF through a quality system -- thus combining them, but leaving the ultimate Thiel signal unmolested by bad quality, right? I can't imagine (or don't know) of any system that might pass through, say, into the Marantz. Can you give me an example or two? Thanks much. |
Thanks all. So I’m focusing on a good, current or vintage two channel amp. (Used, lower price and I’ll take my chance on repair need.) There are several choices including the great ones you’ve all suggested here. Current focus for this purpose is perhaps Mark Levinson 23, or Bryston 4bst -- or one of the others. Now for the pre-amp question -- quality in! (I now get that.) But before I move off into the two-channel pre-world, like perhaps Casablanca, is there a solution such as this Marantz pre that would not overly color the signal in? (Or perhaps if it leaves the signal unmolested, this lesser version.) Or am I understanding the hard truth that this is going to crap up the system even though it’s not having an amping function? And even so, tis, you spoke of the full quality two channel (end-to-end) system, with alternative, cheaper HT passthrough. Would that linked system above accomplish that? Or when you talk about pass through, is there a system that allows this to do so far more unmolested? In all cases, is there any chance that a system such as that can be combined such that (with those features) it can be the "turn-on-and-control-all" system including the quality two-channel system? Or in all cases, am I going to be looking at a tradeoff choice of those features vs. quality? If so, I’m a little puzzled, tis, by what you’re suggesting in terms of integration, as it seemed to imply that there was a solution that would fit what I was looking for. In other words, I'm suspecting that if I ultimately want any HT, I might have to hit multiple on switches for multiple systems to get both quality AND HT. (Although I’m sure I have that pretty muddied up at this point.) I did go listen to the Denon today, and INSTANTLY dropped it from consideration. Heard a lesser powered Marantz amp (which arguably is the same quality realm) but had nicer sound -- which then led me to the question of the possibility of using Marantz simply as a pre system, hoping to bring me even closer to a full picture, including quality. But again, outside of an expensive pre system, I understand I may not have an option. In all cases, budget will probably have me piece a system together in steps, starting with two channel music, adding streaming audio and the like, and perhaps TV somehow, down the road. |
Thanks Tis, That's sort of what I was guessing. I appreciate the clarity. In this setup, you're talking about a unit like this, right? Where channels one and two stand alone, and the occasional DVD use goes through for full set of speaker usage. But in that picture wouldn't most AVRs process the signal before such a unit, putting in their own flavor to channels one and two? Or is it a case that, yes they would, but for DVD, it doesn't matter? And if I may ask a completely subjective opinion, if I went through a unit such as this one (where I DIDN'T segregate the quality of signal, what percent of quality do you think I might lose for the pure music? 10% or more like 20-30% or more? (You see, I don't know the degree to which those kinds of units put in their own flavor on a passthrough.) If it's 5%, I might go with it; if it's 30% I wouldn't. Opinion? |
Thanks.
--CD to sit and listen to.
--I'd like to stream some lossless stuff from Network attached storage.
--Apple Airplay for TIDAL streaming or the like.
--AppleTV music Internet radio -- these two Apple choices for simply walking around the house, background music.
--Then TV's DVD function
After much thought (and guidance) I think I'm beginning to see a path forward for a Bryston amp, and even that two channel Bryston preamp. Creatively, I think I can do most everything listed above thanks to AppleTV streaming. And would envision this plugged into the preamp via some HDMI-to-RCA converter. The only challenge might be the Network attached storage, but that might be streamable via the network and Airplay. I might lose some sonic quality via those over-the-air methods (even the NAS, which otherwise would have been important), but perhaps close enough for now. --Or would that be fairly lossless transfer?
It would be nice ultimately to have multiple speakers surrounding a DVD movie, and to have the ability to select multiple rooms to port sound into other speakers. But I think I'd be fairly content with the above for years. And a good budget price point.
Thanks all for your help and counsel with all of this -- all of you. Might you have an opinion on the Mark Levinson 23, vs. Bryston 4B? |
After going around on this issue, I’ve settled into simply the two-speaker solution, and going for quality. The initial interest in the more channeled amp was to be able to port separate music into my home office. So yes, only the Thiels, left and right. Even for the TV/movie option, I think I’ll simply run TV audio out into a pre-amp. Dilemma solved.
Believe it or not. I have no equipment right now. This is all first system. (Well, since teen years.) The Thiels are purchased, but are still about 900 miles north of me, in Virginia. These were "home pickup only", and I thought, hey, it’s only 14 hours. So I’m building my system around these. And down now to likely Bryston or Mark Levinson. I’ll probably finalize this around Sunday, after some preamp auctions end. --And wanted to wait for the advice of this group, which has been wonderful!
What’s a bit funny is that what started all of this is my TV speakers are blown. And my previous computer-speaker Bose setup that I was using for movies stopped working. So, for the need of a $2 speaker, I’m now significantly out of pocket for a new (great) hobby.
Mesch, that’s wild. I’m hoping for a like quality where soundstage is present.
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And wouldn't you love to be the engineer that puts that together? I think I'll put this sound ... here. |
OK, I've just purchased a Bryston 4B SST (300w) amp. So, after the Thiel 3.6s, this is my second piece. Question now is, what do you recommend for a good (yet not expensive) pre-amp? I've seen some with separate power type modules under them. Is such a thing necessary? I though it was really needed just to select from the various inputs, and send the signal on it's way to the amp then speakers? Any recommendations anyone? I was looking at a Bryston 0.5B, but it's gone. And perhaps next time I shouldn't post the active auction link here. ;) I thought that would have been a good match as they were both Bryston. But I'm back to square one, and seeking recommendations. |
