Questions Re: Time & Phase Alignment


Some basic questions here. Hope nobody minds. Some of this stuff I don't quite understand. Have recently become very interested in T&PA after hearing both the Green Mountain C3 and Thiel 3.7 at RMAF, both of which tout this design quality and both of which were among the best speakers I've ever heard, anywhere.

Questions:

1) Basic definitions. Time-alignment means that sounds that start at two different drivers at the same instant will reach your ears at the same instant.

Phase-alignment means that there are no phase errors between drivers: the same frequency waveform, for example, produced by two drivers (in their overlap region) will be entirely in phase with each other (and thus completely reinforcing).

Are these definitions correct, correct but lacking, incorrect, or what? I find there is a lot of either misinformation or misunderstanding in the industry about these things.

2) How does a sloping baffle produce time-alignment? I really don't understand this - I would think that having the voicecoils of all drivers in the same plane would, in fact, produce time-alignment. Is the slope to compensate somehow for the crossover?

3) On that note, I don't understand why it is that 1st-order crossovers are phase-aligned. Perhaps this is stricly due to the implmentatation - a single cap produces no phase delay? But I don't think that's the case... so why is it that 1st-order xovers are said to be p-aligned and higher-order xovers are not...? Or is that, perhaps, myth?

3) Thoughts on the superiority of coincident midrange driver/tweeter vs. completely separate drivers? I certainly see the benefits of the former but it must introduce some problems as well - there must be distortions caused by the entire tweeter assy moving with the mid driver.

Thanks much in advance to someone who can shed some more light on these topics.
paulfolbrecht

Showing 5 responses by paulfolbrecht

Hey, you could even boldy suggest I check the archives.

I did search; the problem is always TOO MUCH information.

But I'll do that. And I've talked with Roy privately, being that I've been strongly considering the C3s. He's the best. Have not asked him technical quesions but I guess I could do that.
I have Zu Druids in my 2nd system. They are very nice speakers. However, they are not in the SOTA league of such $10K+ speakers as the new Thiels and higher-end Green Mountain C3s.

I already have great speakers in my Hyperion and Zus. I'm kinda looking for, now, what might be the be-all-end-all, truly SOTA speaker. At this point, to me, that means full freq-response, multidriver, dynamic, and time and phase-aligned.

So, yes, I'm familiar with Thiel & GM, but have never heard Vandersteens.

I sort of have two thread going now with very similar topics... sorry about that.
Roy gave me this very sensible response to the coincident driver issue: "Regarding co-incident drivers: Any 1" dome tweeter, below 5kHz, wants to radiate in an omni-directional pattern. This means that much of the sound you would hear from a co-axial mid/tweeter driver in the lower treble comes to you secondarily by way of bouncing off of that mid's cone. Even a short horn around the tweeter cannot prevent this (because it is short). A high-order crossover can help reduce that secondary 'splash' off the mid's cone, by chopping off the low-end of the tweeter even more rapidly."

Hopefully he wouldn't mind me posting it (can't see why not).
songwriter72, what are you driving your Calypsos with?

Theloveman (hmm.. I feel slightly uncomfortable calling you that), I thought the Thiel 3.7s were very impressive. Not as good as the C3s, but very, very good speakers.

Sounds like you are referring to Al driver "ringiness"? It has never bothered me... I can notice it when I try, but it has never bothered me.

I've read that long thread that included the "battle" between Roy & Jeff Joseph. Kind of ironic, their opposite takes on T&P, as some of my favorite speakers are made by both. I used to have Joseph Rm25s which are very good speakers. I've also heard the Pearls, which were pretty amazing. That said, and although I'd heard them years apart, the Pearls do not stand up to Roy's all-out effort, the C3s, which, of course, take T&P into account.

I bought a pair of Continuum 1.5s used. May keep them, may not. May end up in my 2nd system. We'll see.

Heard some VMPS RM30s today at a local owner's house that were pretty impressive. Very good sound all around.