Quad ESL-63 and low-powered amps; Sun Audio, Atma


Looking for opinions about suitability of low-powered amps with my 63's. I currently have an Audio Note M3 pre, CJ MV-60 amp. Importantly, I cross the Quads at line level at 100 hz, first order with nice Vandersteen MH-5 crossovers to Vandy 2wq subs. So the main amp is relieved of much work below 50 hz or so.

Specifically, I am looking at Atma-sphere s-30 MkII OTL 30 watt amp, and possibly even a Sun Audio 2a3 SET 3 watt amp.

Given my crossover, does this lighten the load (power or impedance) in such a way that these amps would work fine? I imagine the Atma will have no issues, but what about the Sun?

Finally, I would love to hear any opinions about the relative sonic characteristics I might hear between the CJ, Atma and Sun. I listen to 50% acoustic jazz, 25% classical, 25% rock. 60% on vinyl... SOTA w/Grace 714 and Grado Ref Sonata1. CD is CEC transport to Audio Note 3.1 Signature. I value musicality and rich midrange over endless detail and "neutrality".

Thanks all.
montaldo

Showing 4 responses by atmasphere

Atmasphere, do you think the differences could be measured someday, but we have not figured it out yet?
We can measure them now, but we don't go about it right.

Essentially what is needed is a weighting system; one that applies more importance to the higher ordered harmonics since the ear is so much more sensitive to them and places less weight on the lower orders since the ear doesn't care about them so much. Then the spec sheet can tell us how the equipment sounds.

Horrors!

The industry is a long ways away from that right now. The way our ears detect sound pressure is sort of an inconvenient truth. Easy enough to prove though and with really simple test equipment...
So as long as a well designed amplifier is not driven into clipping it should sound the same as another one not driven into clipping.
This is a pretty big assumption. What is meant by ’well designed amplifier’?

Designers have different goals so their amps are going to sound different. The reason is twofold: output impedance and distortion. All amps make audible distortion- that’s probably the first thing that should be a given, but so many people think that since an amp has 0.005% THD its distortion is inaudible, and that simply isn’t so.

The reason for *that* is that the human ear/brain system uses higher ordered harmonics to sense sound pressure and to this end is more sensitive to these harmonics than most good test equipment. This is complicated by the Fletcher-Munson curve, which shows that our greatest sensitivity is in the upper midrange - birdsong frequencies. Many instruments have fundamentals that are much lower than that, so if harmonics due to distortion show up in this region we’re tuned to hear it.

Most amps that have very low THD also have distortion signatures that are almost entirely composed of higher ordered harmonics. Some of this is on account of the feedback used- while it suppresses distortion, it also adds some of its own (see the writings of Norman Crowhurst; this should be no secret as he was writing about this 50 years ago).

The human ear converts all forms of distortion into some form of tonality- we’ve known this since the 1930s (see the Radiotron Designer’s Handbook, 3rd Edition).

My goal as a designer is to minimize the distortion product to which the ear is most sensitive- IMD and the higher harmonics (5th and above). Others seek to have flat frequency response with overall low distortion, but I’m here to say that doesn’t work out so well. If you don’t pay attention to how the ear perceives sound, you will wind up with colorations- specifically brightness and harshness. That’s a coloration as much as the ever loving 2nd harmonic that so many tube amps have. The ear has tipping points where it will favor distortion over frequency response, so you have to be careful!

Just my opinion of course... The majority of the audio world, which is ’mid fi’ to the high end market, does not agree. In that world, a Pioneer is as good as a Pass for a lot less bucks because the specs don’t lie, right? The problem is that we audiophiles have been lied to for a very long time and we each intrinsically know that we still have to audition the product no matter what the spec sheet says. That is because the spec sheet isn’t based on how the ear/brain system works, its based on how the eye works and how a good story can propagate even when its not true. In a nutshell, most spec sheets are an excellent example of the Emperor’s New Clothes; a lesson which seems to be lost on so many these days...
Bottom line: well designed amps are not going to sound like each other. You have to know the designer’s intention. One might want it to look good on paper, another might want it to sound like real music. That’s a **huge** difference, yet both can be ’well designed’!!
The ESL 63 works great with our amps, but usually its with either the M-60 or MA-1. The speaker actually needs some power and you don't do it justice with lower-powered amps.
Montaldo, you might want to look at this post:

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?aamps&1420484322&openflup&51&4#51

and this link:

http://www.atma-sphere.com/Resources/Paradigms_in_Amplifier_Design.php

Unless you have a very small room, you will not have enough power with a 300b-based SET. They only have 7 watts. You need more like 50-60 as a minimum to really make the speakers sing in the average sized American room (17' by 20' or so).

Quads go lower than 50Hz, unless you are cutting them off with an electronic crossover. Actually they can make quite convincing bass!