Pros and Cons of built-in amps?

Audiophiles just will not give an active speaker system a chance. Could it be that it is not about the music, as they are fond of saying, but the new equipment of the month that they are so passionate about?

I think there are certainly audiophiles that are guilty of exactly what you describe, but there are also plenty of us that are purely after the best sonic results possible- no matter how they are achieved.

The simple fact is that the best speakers and amplifiers to date have not been active. This has come up several times in various threads and the answer is still the same. On paper, active systems seem to have many advantages, but in practice and in the real world, they have failed to live up to those claims.

Don't get me wrong, they can be quite good as has been demonstrated by some of the Meridian active speaker systems, but few would argue that the Meridian cannot be beat by many combinations of separate amps and passive loudspeakers.

Much of this is common sense. The designers that have the most talent and expertise in loudspeaker design are not as good at designing electronics and visa versa. Perhaps more importantly, if you believe that the best amplifiers on earth are all vacuum tube designs (as I and many others do) then active speakers with their built-in solid state amps are at a huge disadvantage from the start.

In practice, active crossovers have also not been able to achieve the transparency of the highest quality passive crossovers using today's best film capacitors and air core inductors. Those who don't accept the superiority of vacuum tubes are probably not going to "get" this one either, but it happens to be true.

Active speakers, especially with good DSP, are going to bring very good (not the best) sound to many people at more affordable prices in the coming years. These speakers will be easier to set up and less finicky about room issues for people who aren't obsessed audiophiles looking to extract every last molecule of sound quality. Professional studios already reap these benefits and in exchange give up the ultimate sound quality for something that is good enough and revealing enough to get the job done.

Whether active speakers can ever rise to challenge the state of the art remains to be seen. Perhaps someday.

03-23-08: Bob_reynolds
I'm always impressed with the way Dave presents his opinions as absolute truths.

Readers can look at our comments and decide for themselves. It's also not just my opinion. While there can never be consensus about what the best loudspeakers are, there is some general agreement by magazine reviewers and experienced audiophiles about the companies who make gear that often gets put in the top tier and none of the active studio speakers that you and shadorn constantly praise are regulars on those lists. Of course you are free to pose your theory about the meaninglessness of subjective reviews (professional or consumer) and I am free to disagree with you.

How is one speaker "better" than another? How is one "best"? Without defining the metrics, the terms have no meaning. If measured frequency response is the test and "flatness" is the metric, then better and best have meaning within that context. Likewise, if Dave's perception of good sound is the metric, then better and best have meaning within that context.

I'm sorry that you don't believe in the concept of something being better sounding or more musical than something else. Your obsession with measurements and total disinterest in discussing actual listening is puzzling to say the least. If that leaves you regurgitating specs and measurements in response to various questions, I don't see what value that brings to the table.

High end audio and forums like this one are entirely based on the idea of people exchanging their subjective opinions on gear and how well they believe each piece of equipment serves the music. Is there room for measurements too? Sure, but in your case it's the only thing you seem to be able to refer to. Remember, the whole purpose of this equipment is to bring you (the listener) closer to the intended emotional effect of the music. This makes discussions of how well the gear succeeds at that goal inextricably tied to listening and sujectivity- much like discussions about the music itself. I get the feeling that you would want to discuss Coltrane by pointing to charts and graphs.

If you disagree with my assertion that Meridian makes the best examples of active loudspeakers you are of course welcome to disagree. I would be curious to hear what you think sounds better. Have you spent much time listening to the Meridians?

How about my belief that the very best amplifiers are vacuum tube amps? I'm sure you and others disagree with that assertion also, but if you do, please tell us that you have actually had some real listening experience with the best tube amplifiers from ARC, VTL, CJ, Atma-sphere, etc... To often, I find that people on the other side of this agrument have not.

Everyone on Audiogon expresses their opinions about the sound of gear, and it's not necessary to preface each comment with "IMO" when we all know that nearly everything here is just that.

Shadorne said:

However the idea that the Best or most Prestigious Studios in the World with extremely wealthy clients would use something "just good enough to get the job done" is surely laughable.

You misquoted me and completely misunderstood my point. Their use of what I consider to be less than the very best is not at all due to financial considerations. It is instead a combination of efficiency/practicality and an "measurements are everything" point of view that disbelieves all of the things that are necessary to achieve the very best results. Examples of things that these studios don't or won't consider are vacuum tube amplifiers and exotic audio cables. They are also often hindered by a misguided belief in the superiority of digital and DSP.

I would hope that there are a few exceptions to this in the studio world where vacuum tube amplifiers and superior cables are used for the main monitoring system. I have also seen pictures of the Massenberg studio in Nashville and the room is incredible. That, however, doesn't mean that their use of active studio monitors is as good as what could be achieved by separate vacuum tube amplifiers and passive loudspeakers. Again, it has nothing to do with cutting corners or saving money.

Dave, it should be clear by now, that I have no disagreement with any of your subjective opinions whether it concerns Meridian active speakers or vacuum tube amps. Your subjective opinions (or anyone else's) simply don't matter to me so on what is there to disagree.

I do disagree with you (or anyone else) making statements as absolute truths without providing evidence. If you can't provide evidence, then an IMO preface seems warranted.

Well that's where we disagree. Again, according to your view, the vast majority of posts on this site shouldn't exist. Furthermore, all subjective review publications which review audio, music, cars, wine, etc... are totally pointless.

I find subjective comments useful even when I disagree with them. One of the reviewers in the Penguin Jazz guide has polar opposite taste from mine, and reading his review of a particular jazz record tells me nearly as much as does a reviewer I agree with. I always recommend that people read a review or opinion but rely on their own ears, eyes, or palate to make a decision.

Judging by the number of emails I get daily asking me to describe the sonic differences between products X and Y, it seems many don't share your point of view on this matter.

Pink Floyd use David Gilmour's studio "Astoria"....it has plenty of tubes and several miles of Van den hul (audiophile) cables as well as Shunyata. They even have different wiring to the woofers and mid range on their active speakers.

Great, so I guess Shadorne, David Gilmore and I all agree in the superiority of tubes and the value in exotic high end cables!

I'm glad Mr. Gilmore has learned enough about high end audio to have gotten that far. I doubt however that he is an expert in this area like he is in making music and playing guitar.

03-24-08: Bob_reynolds
Dave, do you work as an audio dealer or salesman or reviewer?

As I have stated in dozens of posts, I am an audio dealer. I am also an enthusiast and music lover just like many other people on this form.

03-25-08: Ryder
Not wanting to get involved in the bantering here, I find this statement to be pretty dubious although it may be exaggerated. I get an average of 2 emails a year(not daily) and it's getting pretty quiet lately. I guess Paul must be quite a knowledgable and renowned audio enthusiast having such good reception!~

There seem to be a few dealer haters here and people who make stupid statements like the one Ryder makes above. "Dubious"? How would you have any idea how many emails I get from Agon members on a daily basis? And what does your level of email traffic have to do with mine? And who in the hell is Paul?

Many of my responses here have been to questions about ARC gear, an area in which I have a lot of experience. So I do constantly get emails from Agon members asking about sonic differences, equipment matches, etc...

03-25-08: Bob_reynolds
In the system I was talking about I've had a tube SET amp and two different solid state amps. I heard no difference (except on some days the tubes made audible noise).

That statement summarizes everything that one needs to know about you Bob. You might make that quote your tag line. You bring nothing of value to this discussion.

Here's the problem Bob. On another current thread you respond to a question where the OP asks about tubes vs. transistors. Your response:

03-24-08: Bob_reynolds
I also could not get around the tubes being noisy on some days and quiet on others. I didn't notice any sonic differences, so I chose solid state for convenience.

You couldn't hear or haven't ever heard "any sonic differences" between tubes and transistors?!?! You either have virtually no listening experience with the gear in question, or there is something very wrong with your hearing.

So why are you involved in a discussion with me about whether vacuum tube amplifiers and passive loudspeakers SOUND better than active speakers with built-in solid state amps? You don't have any experience to base a position on.

To a certain extent these comments apply to Shadorne, who in various threads has also indicated a serious lack of exposure to high end listening- especially of vacuum tube amplifiers, cables, analog vinyl, high end digital playback and I'm sure plenty more. Bob and Shadorne are not experienced listeners and I have made a point of chiming in and contradicting their incorrect and experience-less positions when possible.

In other threads, where the topic is of interest to other people like me who actually listen and have lots of experience with all of the gear in question, they have been quieted pretty quickly. But in threads like this one that appeal to them (b/c they both believe in active speakers) where others don't bother to read, they give out at limited if not flat out false advice.

Sorry, but someone has to present the other side.

To put things straight, I mistook you as "Paulfolbrecht" Davemitchell. And Dave, I didn't have the impression that you were an audio dealer all the while, so my assumption of the emails you are getting on daily basis. Also, please note that I am not a "dealer hater" as suggested in your post, and I have bought from quite a number of dealers here, although not from you. I did not expect your rather crude remarks, more so coming off from a dealer like yourself.

I would have nothing but kind words for you Ryder had you not stated that something I said was "dubious" or "exagerated". So let's be fair about who made any crude remarks.

Cdc mentions that a pro audio review site really likes Chord and Pass Labs amplifiers. That's encouraging as they are both excellent examples of how good solid state amps can sound.

But it also points to a limitation with active speakers like those from ATC and Meridian. As good as both of those are, they are limited by the quality of their built-in amplifiers. In Meridian's case, which I would argue has the better amplification of the two, they are not at the same level as the Chord amplifiers. I know this because I used to be a Meridian dealer and have recently spent a fair amount of time with Chord electronics. Chord makes some of the best solid state gear I have ever heard. (I am not a Chord dealer)

Well you can read on line what people say about active speakers - Telarc Here is an excerpt: "We feel like we're finally hearing the detail of our work for the first time," says Telarc president Bob Woods of the installed ATC monitor system. "As a professional studio product we've never encountered anything quite like it.

All that comment speaks to is Bob Woods' lack of experience with better systems. It means that whatever their previous system was (?) was much worse than their new ATC system.

Had Bob Woods or Shadorne experienced lots of other state of the art systems, they would have a different reference point from which to judge the ATC active speakers.

I am not, by the way, trying to belittle ATC speakers because they are quite good (I've listened to them on numerous occasions). They also make some good drivers, my ProAc Response Five's use the ATC midrange dome. But, there are many more high res and capable systems out there.

A limitation: The amplifiers built in to the ATC speakers are not in the same league as amps from Chord (and many others). I would hope that even Shadorne would admit that. A company like ATC would have to literally team up with a company like Chord in order to start to compete with the very best. And even then, I don't thing going active at midrange and high frequencies would be able to equal the best passive systems.

It's also not true that the active systems are necessarily more revealing and accurate. A passive system with the right speakers and Chord electronics will be very neutral.

Dave,

So you don't like ATC. I hear you loud and clear and you are quite entitled to even go as far as to hate them.

WOW! You actually don't read do you. Here's what I said.

I am not, by the way, trying to belittle ATC speakers because they are quite good (I've listened to them on numerous occasions). They also make some good drivers, my ProAc Response Five's use the ATC midrange dome. But, there are many more high res and capable systems out there.