Ljgj, I had planned to stay out of this discussion so as not to color the responses, but since you ask, I'll be brief. Since I don't design drivers, I have primarily done various designs with stock/modified drivers. I started out with multi-way systems with simple and complex crossovers. I studied diligently, believing that if I could just get the right drivers and the right..... So, then I tried 2 way designs, same story. Now don't get me wrong, these were all good sounding speakers. But, all the tradeoffs. Slopes, cascading phase shifts with varying slopes, overlap problems, beaming frequencies, signal losses, driver matching, impedance fluctuations at varying frequencies with the corresponding response fluctuations, different driver phase shift angles added to the capacitor/coil phase shifts, corrective circuits, zobel networks, information loss, etc,etc. At some point, I became aware that if the whole ball of wax was simplified, more information could get through to the driver, with more coherent structure, due to the lack of the above. I am not promoting that any system is perfect. However, I am standing on the premise that more musical information, in a more coherent form will yield a more natural presentation, even if some aspects such as frequency extremes and even some dynamics are somewhat limited by the nature of a single driver. The idea being that a usable frequency range of extremely well resolved information is better than a wider range that has lost some of the information, and muddled it. Add point source imaging and my choice became clear. This information retrieval/retention theory has been standard in analog source design for years.You cannot retrieve musical information that has been lost earlier in the signal chain. I think it also applies to all other aspects of the system including speakers. I can see that I am in the small minority in this belief, but that does not deter me, nor does it mean that I am not correct. Perhaps the perfect driver has not come along yet, but if/when it does, the theory will prove itself. A driver connected directly to the amp, with no intervening components other than the necessary wire is the least offending structure to the signal we are trying to listen to. |
Sean, your drivers are Ohm walsh types. |
Still trying to stay out of this,Jj,my "point" is the interesting observation that while audiophiles seek true sound reproduction, they sacrifice some of that same truth in reproduction, in the name of wide spectrum and high volume. As you say, tradeoffs must be made. Personally, I would opt for more truth at the expense of spectrum and volume. Perhaps I am too much of a purist.I find it interesting though, that people in a hobby that seem to be microscopically involved with minute sonic details of cable characteristics and such, make the decision to trade off more music information for wider spectrum(particularly in one of the least used octaves). They make this decision fully aware that it will lead to reduced musical truth in all the other octaves of the spectrum, and seem to be happy to do so. Perhaps they subscribe to the "happy medium" theory. This is fine, if that is what floats your boat.And I have heard very fine multi-way speakers that sound terrific. And,BTW they more typically than not, do not reproduce the lowest full octave either, even with multi-way design. So, in many(most) cases you're not getting full bass anyway. And you have sacrificed some of the signal. I just don't believe that's the best way to go. |
Okay, guys, I think that you all are presenting some great reasons for your choices. Contrary to what any may think, I don't hate box multi-way speakers. I also agree with those who said things about the tradeoffs being personal choices and even those who felt that my idea of musical truth was different than theirs, with both being valid for each individual. I very highly admire those who valued their ears' judgment over all else. To Onhwy61, who questioned my motives for this thread, my reason was to see how seasoned audiophiles come to make their decisions on a tough issue like this and to see what criteria are most important to these people(all of you) in speakers and systems as a whole. And to see if I was using faulty reasoning in my decision process that I could not see myself. I am impressed with the depth and scope of your responses and feel proud to be associated with such strong minded and knowledgable folks. I would love to hear some of the super systems that some of you have assembled. And I have shared much info on several threads about mine, and why I took the approach I did. If I didn't think that the one-way system was good, I wouldn't have promoted it as strongly as I did. The reason being that I wanted to share the experience with all of you, as well as my reasoning behind it. I like to post threads that are thought provoking and controversial, because it seems they get the best ideas flowing. I've become a great fan of this forum and love to participate in the discussion, even if I may seem highly opinionated. I thank you all for your participation and valued opinions and look forward to more discussion and great listening with you all in the future. |
Zaikesman, I completely agree with your insightful observation on the box speaker evolution/development. I hope that in coming days, you could change your view of me from "agent provocateur" to "interested participant with a unusual point of view" or something. You obviously look for more in these posts than just the factual statements, or you wouldn't have even noticed a two pronged approach in my question. So maybe our points of view aren't all that different. I can see that your insight is not limited to the box speaker development path. I very much look forward to having the opportunity to have future discussions on this forum with people like yourself. After all, audio is not just the equipment alone. It is the interaction of music and the listener that makes the magic. The perceptions of the listener is at least as important, if not more important, than the gear producing it. Cheers. |
Zaikesman, I currently use a Fostex FE103 based single driver system in a tubular transmission line configuration, tuned to 41.7Hz. Since the FE103's are only 4" drivers, they will not be everyone's cup of tea. But they are common in high end systems here and in Japan.I drive them with a 1 watt Berning OTL and they give me satisfactory results for my application. With the impedance curve mods I did, and the T-Line loading, the 41.7Hz bass response is achieved. I am not in need of lower bass than that for my listening. SPL levels are low by most audiophile standards, but reasonably loud levels are possible without much compression except on full symphonic and heavy rock. Jazz, vocals, pop, folk,etc. are breathtaking in detail and naturalness, and imaging and soundstage is typical point source perfect(dare I say it?). They won't rock the house down, but I live on a large lot and when I walk the dog, I can hear the music faintly from 30 yards away with the windows closed. They do not suffer the usual HF rolloff of single drivers because of my impedance re-curve mod.(also greatly helps bass response.) So a usable bandwidth from 41.7-20kHZ is not bad for a single driver and SPL's in the upper 90's to boot. The whole ball of wax ran me $250 for the pair. Now, I've worked in high end audio stores and been around, so I've heard plenty of good stuff and these babies are good! If you really need that bass kick, then you could cross in a sub pretty low and you've got it. But when I put on Sade(Best of)I can feel that low bass in my body - with no subs. This type of design can also be done with 6's or 8's too, and you'll get more SPL and lower bass that way. But, the 4" is fast,light, and easy to control at all frequencies. As this whole thread demonstrated, tastes vary. Whether you could live with this sound, I don't know, but I sure can.And I saved alot of jack in the process. I've heard multi-thousand dollar speakers that can't match these within their limitation range. So, if you can live with lower SPL,bass to 40HZ, some compression in the really big music, and stunning, highly detailed and natural sound in all other aspects, these will please you. |
Paul, you are correct on both accounts. A speaker down 40 db at 25Hz or any thing like that could not be considered accurate at that frequency. The question is what do you do about it? This has been the discussion above. Read some more above posts, because I can't write a book again on it here. In you crossover statement, basic simple crossovers shift 90 degrees out of phase on a 6db slope. Most audiophile speakers will use 12db because that slope is 180 out, and can be compensated for by switching the polarity on the appropriate driver. 18db slopes are 270, and 24db slopes are 360 or 0. This is simplified theory, but there are other methods used to address phase shift. As for electrostats,the "full range" types are single drivers, albeit a different type than cone drivers. (Some stats use multiple panels though) |
|
Greg, the phase problem you mention is only one of the many phase related problems. Phase induced distortion/coloration is another. Sure, there are methods of addressing these problems. My contention is that the cure is generally worse than the original illness. If I told you that your system would sound better if you would just wire-in a few transformers and capacitors into your speaker cables, you would think I was crazy. And you would be right! That is essentially what a crossover network is. Except, it is calculated to achieve the blending of drivers in multi-way speaker systems. Sometimes it is done very well. Most times it is not. When high end mfr's. tell you to wire-in transformers and capacitors into your speaker line, nobody thinks they are crazy. How come? Do you ever remember hearing a small table radio or old car radio that sounded really good, even though it was small? Alot of that "goodness" can be attributed to the simple speaker setup, driven direct with no other drivers or parts. Now table radios(boom boxes) and car stereos(rolling boom boxes)sound like crap, but they have plenty of bass. Such is the case with 98% of the multi-way systems today. There is a significant segment of purchasers who will place bass response over all else, and buy the "least offensive" big-bass speaker, and claim it sounds great. Maybe it does. This is subjective. I'm quite sure that the owner of the pulsating Nissan that reverberates subsonic shock waves through my house every morning on his way to work, thinks his car stereo sounds great, too. Now that I think about it, I could probably get rich designing a new single driver system utilizing a 24" driver that produces high SPL and only responds from 10HZ-150Hz. This is the only part of the frequency range that seems to matter these days, anyway. Maybe I could name it the "Seismic Oscillator" or "Primal Thump". Any takers? |
