I think that certain things are hardwired and certain things are learned. The hardwired pieces are appreciation for rhythm and melody. Maybe it comes from reacting to the rhythms of nature -- surf, wind, etc. In any event, moving your body to a rhythm seems very natural. Humans are not alone in moving to a beat -- maybe it's a survival trait that helps tribes bond. Speaking of survival, there is a certain rhythm to mating (i.e. the act) so that may be related to the need for this hardwiring. Melody seems like a natural thing since babies enjoy it so much and it is soothing. Why would it be linked to our survival as a species and be hardwired? I'm at a loss. Maybe it's related to language itself and the cadence of the spoken word -- every language has differences in this so it would be imperative for humans to perceive these differences since very subtle variations have different meanings. Again, it's a survival of the fittest thing -- but here, "fit" means having an inate ability to perceive subtle differences in tone and rhythm.
Beyond that, I think much is learned. For example, the enjoyment of the subtlties of an orchestra or appreciation of the nuances of a jazz bass. Different cultures and groups focus and emphasize different aspects of this. By the way, this is not to say that even this is unrelated to survival. For example, a more analytic mind may pick up micro detail that is very enjoyable for that person. The analytic ability is important for the species -- some have more than others. The more sensory mind may pick up the macro mood or "meshing" that is very enjoyable for that person. Again, the Emotional IQ ability is important for the species and again, some have more than others.
In terms of musical systems -- I would suspect that the abilitiy to convey most of the information accurately is a key. Most of the information is in the midrange. So, that's a start. Beyond that, it may depend on whether people enjoy tha macro vs. micro, etc. I do believe that the macro tends to prevail for musicality (by the way, there was an excellent threas on that a year or so ago).
Whew! I'm taking a deep breath now and firmly saying that all of the above is IMHO. Very philosphical and interesting question. I'm looking forward to a long and interesting thread here. |
Gregm, I think we are together on your points. My hypothesis is that melody is a "natural" fascination but I suspect you appreciate the nuances and structure more today.
6chac, I know that something is with me, I just hope it's useful someday ;-) |
Asa, I apologize but am in the process of moving into a new home and have just enough time to say I'll get with you all tomorrow. I've not even had time to do more than scan the responses (and laugh a bit). No offense or neglect meant -- some great stuff here. "I'll be baack" |
Asa, interesting surf questions.
The surf is the heartbeat of the world. It exists regardless of how it is appreciated. Although I hate to categorize or pigeon-hole people too much (far too many complexities really), a Jungian based profiling methodolgy (the Meyers-Briggs tests) splits people into 16 types. These types hold constant proportionally across any human culture so, I believe, reveals fundamental human, rather than cultural, differences and similarities. Why the differences? From a Darwinian perspective, I think we needed different ways to think and act in order to survive as a species. No one way wins alone in all situations. Hence, the fundamental need for cooperation. Hold that thought for a minute.
Getting back to the surf, I would contend that everyone appreciates it in some way. However, I don't believe that it is in the same way. (By the way, ditto for musical appreciation). Is an appreciation of the surf, or rhythm, fundamental to survival? Probably. Pacing our physical labors is rhythmic and the reproductive act itself is rhythmic. And, by the way, survival based or not, our first nine months is nothing but rythmic inside the womb. On a more macro level, we need to cooperate to survive, but we are different from one another which leads to tension. Does rhythm help hold us together as a tribe? I believe so. The pre-tribe stuff doesn't matter as much since you had to reproduce within a tribal setting to keep the genes going.
So how is the surf perceived? Differently by different people, but in a fundamentally comfortable way. For me, surf is best when I disappear into it. Just as music is best when I lose myself in it.
More of my two cents. I hope it makes sense. I'm still in a rush right now due to the move so I apologize if this isn't as coherent as it could be. |
Asa, music is not so fragile that it can be found only in silence. Words are ways to organize thoughts -- we can debate whether words free or enslave them (I'd argue for both). Why wouldn't words help, not harm, the understanding so long as we don't rely on them alone? "Creating non-silence" disturbs only the silence, not the totality of perception.
Of course, maybe I misunderstood. But generally, I have to agree with Detlof that words are necessary (even thoughts are couched in the structures of words though feelings are not). |
Gregm, mesurement is not just unnecessary, it is unwanted, intrusive and destructive. Measurement, in any objective sense, is the antithesis of art. We don't yet know enough to allow art and science to comfortably merge and co-exist. That struggle is near and dear to us as audiophiles, where we constantly balance the known science (e.g., ohm's law) with the unknown art (e.g., pc's affecting the sound). We live in the grey zone and are yet too ignorant to see through the fog. Until then, I want nothing objective to get between me and the music; let it touch my soul directly. |
Interesting observation Onhwy61. Is perception and measurement the same? Perhaps so, in some ways. I was referring to the objective sense of scientific measurement. Certainly, air pressure can be measured by either the ear or an instrument, but that does not measure the music itself. In other words, art itself cannot be measured objectively though certain perceptions of art can be. Thanks for the clarification.
We'll likely need to leave the discussion of soul for another time and place. My personal belief is that the soul extends beyond the mind. The general proposition about the inability to measure art does not rely on that, or I belive any, specific interpretation of soul.
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Unsound, if it's any consolation, I'm starting to scare myself. Maybe it's time for a nice single malt! |
Onhwy61, I am looking forward to the day when I can fill in the blanks and expand the sound from any source with my mind alone. That is, perhaps, the ultimate goal toward which we should all strive. I suspect that many other things would also fall in place with that sort of discipline. I am not saying this "tongue in cheek". You are absolutely correct. At the same time, I don't believe my capabilities are there -- even though it would make my life so much easier ;-) |
Asa, good questions.
1) What brain/mind is formed by the experience of music? I'm not sure "formed" is quite as appropriate as "excercised". For me, the left and right brain come together and dance. Sometimes one is leading, sometimes the other. The analytic and the artistic/intuitive -- we need both and music helps bring them both out.
2) What next me am I choosing to form? For me, I choose to strengthen the artistic/intuitive. As many threads have pointed out, sometimes the analytic overwhelms, especially among audiophiles.
3) The "I" always gets in the way -- of listening, of art, of beauty, of appropriate action. Why should music be any different?
Asa, I must admit that I sure wasn't following everything that was being said (and not just by you) but we are ending up in a good place and your comments always make me think just a little harder and differently. |
I get the sense we are all saying about the same thing but coming at it from different directions. What neurological pathways are created? It probably does depend on what paths were created before and, I suspect this is true, what paths are being altered or destroyed. Hence, it is personal. That is not to say it does not happen; simply that it happens differently for everyone.
I beleive all will agree that energy and mass are the same thing and that we don't understand more than we do understand. Everything stated above, by 6chac, Detlof, Onhwy61, Unsound, Asa ... all reflect those propositions. In my mind, art, including music, is both special and universal. It is a way to communicate across boundaries because it breaks them down. That is, it breaks down the conventions and language we have learned to accept as reality. Music does change how we think and who we are. The more we accept that, the more we can change (at least I think so).
Some time ago, as I was walking to a friend's house, I heard a new symphony. It was beautiful. No electronics were present. It disappeared only when I stopped to think about it. I was not on drugs and I am not a musician. What happened? How did it happen? Honestly, I don't know. But it did happen. And it happens occasionally again in the dusk before deep sleep and the dawn before full awakening (pretty poetic, huh?). It just happens -- but never when my normal thinking can get in the way. Therefore, for me, our day to day perception of music is only the tip of the iceberg.
I believe that music is fundamental to humanity. Is it hardwired for Darwinian purposes, a melding of thought & soul or is it something that is simply present and is the dance of the universe? Maybe all of the above. Look at a video of Stevie Ray Vaughn playing music. It's magical. Someday, like most magic, we may be able to explain it. I've tried very hard to do so above and I've tried very hard to follow everyone's views. I feel like I'm closer (that journey thing, Unsound); it's near the tip of the tongue but not quite there. Maybe it never will be since the tongue, representing language and structured thought, is not where it belongs.
P.S. Unsound, I think we're all starting to scare each other. |
